Cash for Clunkers Going to a Vote

This news is breaking, so all the details aren’t in yet, but it appears President Barack Obama and House Democrats have agreed on a “cash for clunkers” bill. According to early reports, the bill would give incentives to buy new, fuel-efficient cars to anyone trading in a car that gets 18 mpg or less. The amounts of the incentives aren’t known yet, but it’s interesting to note that pickups and SUVs will also be included in the program, as will heavy-duty work trucks that have no EPA mileage ratings. For those heavy-duty trucks, any 2001 or earlier model will be eligible for the incentive.

The bill still needs to be introduced, debated and passed by both the House of Representatives and the Senate before car shoppers out there start thinking about dumping that old Grand Marquis in the driveway.

House Dems reach 'cash-for-clunkers' deal (Detroit News)

Comments 

lance

Even more welfare checks for the American public.

If Americans think mpg is important then let them vote with their own checkbook, not with welfare checks.

Rich

Not sure what stayed in the bill, but the proposed legislation can been viewed at:

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-1550

Original sheth

seems relatively fair although the only cars likely to get the $4500 rebate are Prius and Insight. I guess the environmentalists demanded that one. I still think the highest rebate should have been for NA assembled vehicle.

OS,
Then high volume cars like Fusion wouldn't be eligible.
DT

Original sheth

Rich:

That link shows the original bill which stirred up a lot of opposition from Toyota and environmental activists. Based on what the Det news is saying the new bill is substantially different and places no higher value on vehicles assembled in North America.

Original sheth

Dave:

Fusion is assembled in Mexico which I am counting as part of NA. The original bill was meant to favor cars build in Canada, US, Mexico which made sense because it wouldn't have punished the Asian automakers. Unfortunately, that was changed because it would've excluded Prius/Insight.

Rich

OS - Thanks, I didn't originally see the details in the sidebar of the Det News article.

I'm still unclear about a couple of things.

If the 18 mpg figure for the 'clunker' city or highway, and is that based on the new or old EPA estimate?

Rich,
We'll know more about the final bill soon. I'd be shocked if the new car can get as low as 22 mpg if it's not a combined number.

Original sheth

I think its based on new EPA system but if that is a combined number most car owners wont qualify. The bill should have remained closer to its original framework. It should have been available to owners of old vehicles (even four cylinders) and offered on NA built vehicles. Because certain groups lobbied for the bill to explicitly remove "guzzlers" from the road they have excluded many old cars. If you own a 15 year old Accord or Camry or Corolla you won't qualify if that 18mpg is a combined number.

ralphie

How do they get the new EPA mileage numbers for the old cars?

Is there a conversion calculation from the old mileage numbers?

What if your car was rated better than 18 but now due to wear and tear no longer gets 18 and burns oil? Isn't this exactly the vehicle the bill was designed to get off the road?

JS

What is to prevent a dealer from having a single "clunker" on his lot that he repeatedly sells to new car buyers for $1000 with the condition that the new car buyer immediately sells the clunker back to the dealer also for $1000 as a trade-in for their new car purchase.

The clunker then stays at the dealer, and the new car buyer gets the full rebate without ever having to take possession of the clunker or trade-in his "real" car.

Tony

No matter how you put it one thing remains the same:
Somebody will take money from everybody and give it to some... to give it further to special ones. Redistribution of wealth in action. Or call it Ethanol-2

XYZ

I have two ten year old cars but they both get better than 18 mpg right now. How will mpg be determined for these old cars?

If required, I can clog up my air filter, mess up the timing, and fill the trunk with lead-shot before trading in if that is what is required to get it below 18 mpg and earn an extra $4500 before trading it in.

Rich

This fact sheet from Energy and Commerce Committee says the MPG figure is for the EPA combined figure.

Still no clarification on if the clunker mileage figure is based on the old or new EPA estimate.

http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20090505/cashforclunkers.pdf

I'd *assume* it'd be under the newer standard, it'd end up costing a bit less.

DodgeFan

On one hand, the final bill won't spend alot of money we don't have. The other hand, this bill could have been a very useful attempt to raise the overall fleet milleage of all the U.S.A. Therefore, decreasing demand for oil and keeping oil prices low.

Juan Carlos

maybe I missed it, but does anyone know when the rebate comes in? will it be at the dealer or have to wait until april 15 of the following year?

Original sheth

All cars dating back to 1985 are rated under the NEW system by the EPA's site. These averages are using the current system, not the old one.

Jim

From reading the bill:

*The clunker must have been registered to the new-car purchaser for a period of 120 days before the new car purchase takes place.

*The clunker must be road-worthy.

*The motor and drivetrain of clunker vehicles must be destroyed, although other parts of the car can be re-sold.

*Only one rebate per person/couple.

*Clunker rebate cannot be used to replace mfgr's rebate.

K

Apparently OS is sour.

Only saying NA vehicles just to include his beloved Fusion.

steve

I've seen '18 or less' for the old vehicle and 'less than 18'. My 95 Grand Marquis gets a combined 18 according the the epa.

I'm either having a party or quite upset.

Of course it hasn't passed yet anyway, but it likely will.

sheth

K:

I didn't propose the legislation- the original bill was limited to vehicles made in North America. Why? Because those vehicles have high levels of US content and that would keep Americans working. Its common sense. Offering rebates on cars built in Japan wont do squat for US workers. Except those at the docks who unload cargo.

K

So Sheth is saying that the Fusion even made in Mexico will benefit US worker.
Makes perfect sense.

Original sheth

K:

Yes, thats exactly what I'm saying. There are thousands of parts in a vehicle. Final assembly is only ONE part of the process. Vehicles made in Canada and the US use components from US suppliers or even components from US factories owned by the manufacturers. I can assure you no US content goes into Japanese made cars.

You might want to check out this link to get some clarity:

http://content.usatoday.com/community/comments.aspx?id=28217210.story&p=2

K

Sheth,

Get off the meth.
So you are saying US companies ships their parts to Mexico just to get it assembled there and ship it back to US to sell. Makes perfect sense to lower the cost.

Brad

He is exactly right. I drive a truck that hauls parts for the Ford Fusion from Northern, Ohio to Southern, Ohio. These parts are then packaged and sent to Hermasillo, Mexico to be assembled. My company also hauls parts for the Chevy HHR that are made in Southern Ohio, Shipped to Northern Ohio to be painted, shipped back to Southern Ohio to have a foam sealant installed, then shipped to Hermasillo. You can check them out at browncorp.com. They make parts for Ford, Chrysler, GM, and Nissan. So perhaps telling someone they need to get off meth when you have no idea what you are talking about is a bad idea.

Brad

Oh, and if you want to check out some other people involved in the process of making parts that Brown Corp send to assembly plants in Mexico and Canada, please check out Dundee Products- Dundee, MI, Superior Roll Forming-Valley City, OH, IPS West- Waynesfield, OH, Midwest Stamping-Edgerton, OH, Jackson Tube-Piqua, OH, Parthenon Tube-Lavergne, TN, Ohio Valley Stamping-Mansfield, OH, Kronis Coatings-Mansfield, OH, Walker Tool & Die-Grand Rapids, MI, Pyper Tool & Die, Grand Rapids, MI, and a long LONG list of other suppliers that Brown uses before they even ship their few parts off to Mexico and Canada. We have 4 trucks working every day for Brown, my Brother-in-law works in Quality at Brown, and this community and the others I mentioned depends heavily on this factory. So yeah, American cars "assembled" in Mexico still create a hell of a lot of jobs here in the states.

Brad

I should also point out that NONE of these factories are UAW.

Original sheth

Thanks Brad. Its always nice to see people with common sense show up around here. I assure you "K" wont be responding to your post though.

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