Government To Buy 17,600 Domestic Vehicles

The Obama administration announced it will use part of the $787 billion stimulus package to purchase new vehicles made by the Big Three.

The government will spend $285 million in taxpayers’ money to buy 17,600 fuel-efficient vehicles, 2,500 of which will be hybrids.

All the vehicles will be purchased through the General Services Administration, which deals with logistics and procurement. GSA will only buy vehicles from General Motors, Ford Motor Company and Chrysler.

So what does fuel-efficient mean? The vehicles purchased must be 10% more efficient on average than the vehicles being replaced.

Comments

While I understand that the "nationalism" that the bill is trying to foster, I am fully against it.

As Lee Iacoca put it, "if you can find a better car, BUY IT."

I would prefer the government to be able to purchase imports if they want.

If it weren't for the racist "good ol' boys" who would revolt with pitchforks, I think the government would allow imports.

I mean, with (perceived?) inferior quality and long term reliability, it could cost the government much more in terms of maintenance and upkeep.

Americans have long voted with their pocketbooks. They support imports (at least with sedans). it's unfortunate that they have to settle for inferior products because of so-called patriotism.

My guess is the govt. already buys mostly domestic vehicles for a number of reasons.
1. They have more robust fleet sales depts.
2. Politicians would already want to support their homegrown products.
3. They're usually cheaper to purchase.

The question is what vehicles will actually be sold under this. Fusion hybrids? Escape hybrids? Regular 4 cylinders like a Cobalt XFE or Focus?

Andrew:

If you joined us in 2009 you would know that there is no compromise in buying a domestic vehicle. Its a shame that so many people are stuck in 1985. Can you explain why exactly the government would "win" by buying imports? Fuel efficiency? The pickups from Gm and Ford are more efficient than the Tundra. At this point in time the Tundra is the 4th best pickup on the market so I'm not sure how taxpayers are being cheated by the government not buying Tundras. If we shift to cars (4 cylinder since gov isn't going to buy V6s) the Malibu and Fusion are more efficient than the camry. And cheaper with comparable equipment. Explain to me how the government would be smart to buy the Camry. The Fusion is indeed built in Mexico, but the Malibu is not. You also infer that the government will spend more due to the unreliability of these domestic models. You have any proof? HAve you actually spoken to a mechanic or anyone that maintains a fleet of cars to see if domestic vehicles are costly to keep? Why do rental agencies buy domestic vehicles if import vehicles make the most financial sense? There are a number of reaons why governments and large operators buy domestic and one is flexibility. Most imports have a very limited number of variations and fleet customers often want vehicles that meet their specific needs. This is one reason why the Tundra cannot seriously compete for fleet sales with the domestic brands. It just doesn't come in enough configurations. Police cars are another example. Why dont we see reliable camrys as police cars? One reason is that Chrysler and Chevy offer the specifications police departments need in the Impala and Charger. They are not stock cars.

Everyone knows that if it weren't for Fleet/Rental sales GM's sales would be 45% less. I say keep GM in business as we need a major auto company to supply the car rental companies and to employ the uneducated.

That's interesting that the Honda Odyssey has more American content than the Chevy Silverado. Just goes to show you how unAmerican GM is. If I wanted to buy a real American car I'd buy a Toyota, Ford or Honda.

Wow, my tax dollars were paying for those incompetent garbage?

"Everyone knows that if it weren't for Fleet/Rental sales GM's sales would be 45% less. I say keep GM in business as we need a major auto company to supply the car rental companies and to employ the uneducated."

BAsed on the above comment I can only assume you own American vehicles. Fleet sales are probably closer to 20% and fleet sales include non rental cars like police and government vehicles. Those sales do not drive down resale values like rental sales. Most import fleet sales are to rental agencies. Over the past few years all of the domestics have been cutting back on fleet sales- guess who has been making up the gap. If you go to a rental lot and see Mazdas, Toyotas and tons of Hyundais you will have your answer. I'm sure an "educated" man like yourself knows all of this though.

People like me are stuck in 1985 because we put our hard earned dollars into buying domestic cars in the 80's that gave us nothing but headaches. 1991 Camry, first import car, drove it 7 years without having any problems. In my mind, I'm stuck in the present, learning from my previous mistakes.

Which car companies are turning a profit and investing the money into new technologies and new car plants? Which car companies have lost money quarter after quarter and are behind in R&D?

If it was a tube of toothpaste, sure, I'd give the original brand a try. for $20-30,000? You'd have to give me a very compelling reason why I'd risk that much money on a domestic again. The last car i test drove that made me consider a domestic was the Cadillac CTS, but who wants to buy from a potentially bankrupt company?

The political backlash if US taxpayers bought from non-union/non-Big 3 companies would be immense, even with the large "political capital" that Obama has.

Also, i'd rather have a product from a factory where workers get along instead of places filled with mistrust/ill-will. I don't want to get the equivalent of "saliva-enhanced burger"

Have I spoke to auto mechanics? No... because I don't ever need to see one :-)

If you're on familiar terms with your mechanic, isn't that a sign of a LARGER UNDERLYING problem?

While I don't think that there is any current import car, which is good for police cruiser... Ok, BMW 5 series would be too expensive for any police department.

I think, the best sign of good working horse is NYC taxi. And what taxi uses? - Siennas!

But our government are bunch of funny guys. From one side, they are about to send two automakers into bankruptcy, and they are buying thousends of cars from them. This means that any warranty issues will cost even more. At least, if Ford is to stay, they could buy from them, so Ford will cover the warranty problems, not the money we pay into this black hole called "income tax".

It is not as if American cars are so unreliable, while that may somewhat be the case with Chrysler, GM and Ford have decent and sometimes better reliability than imports (like the Fusion compared to the Camry). A government vehicle is just supposed to be reliable, do you seriously think they would care if there was a gap between the dashboard and glove compartment?

Mr. Goldman,
As an autoworker myself but for one of the Japanese companies, I resent the notion that we are, as you so ignorantly put it, "uneducated". If we're so "uneducated", then why would you even consider buying a vehicle from either the big American 3, the big Japanese 3 or the Germans who build cars, trucks, and SUVs in the country? Wouldn't you be putting your life or the life of your family at risk by driving around in something built by "uneducated" people? I really think you should consider investing in a really good pair of shoes or a bicycle because you really wouldn't want to risk your life in something built by "uneducated" people would you?

Sarcasm aside, I'd put up a paycheck that I work with people with more common sense and intellect than you. Finally, it doesn't matter if you purchase American, Japanese, or German, every aspect of your existense depends on us. If it wasn't for vehicles large and small built by us "uneducated" folks and the engineers who design them and make them do what they do, you'd still be smelling horse or mule flatulence. Think about that before you post another dumb and insulting statement.

Andrew:

You are so off base that its honestly disturbing that you would write so much. Here are a few points:

1. Virtually all automakers are losing money
2. GM and Ford have spent millions ugrading their plants and several GM plants are amongst the most efficient on the continent.
3. GM is most definitly not behind any import brand in engineering. Ford is catching up with the 3.5L V6 and Ecoboost. Honda doesnt even have continuous VVT on its engines yet while GM has it on virtually every DOHC engine it makes. Honda has ZERO direct injection engines while GM has two available now with two more on the way in 2010 products. Honda is still using 5 speed autos while GM has 6 speed autos on its mainstream family sedans available for under $25k.
4. There has not been a UAW strike vs an automaker in 11 years or so. There has been no major labor unrest in recent years and UAW plants are as modern and efficient as any non union plants. Again, you are dealing in stereotypes, not facts. Have you ever seen the inside of a union plant? Do you know how many hours it takes to assemble a vehicle in an efficient union plant?
5. I would presume your domestic vehicle was purchased in 1990 or earlier. That is 19 years ago. Sorry if I dont share your view that things have not changed in nearly 20 years. BAck in the 60s and 70s there were people who wouldnt buy Japanese because of WW2. I'm sure you think that stance sounds silly. If so, keep in mind that your position sounds equally ridiculous. If a company makes mistakes consumers should want those mistakes addressed. If they are addressed than the products deserve consideration. I suppose you wont buy a Hyundai because of what they sold in the late 80s.

"I think, the best sign of good working horse is NYC taxi. And what taxi uses? - Siennas!"

Please dont tell me you are seriously claiming most taxis in NYC are Toyotas. That would be a lie- a major one. Most taxis are crown vics and NYC is encouraging taxi companies to buy hybrids so there are Escape Hybrids in service there as well.

"If you're on familiar terms with your mechanic, isn't that a sign of a LARGER UNDERLYING problem?"

I never said I was on a first name basis with ANY mechanic. I was asking you a question. My car is under warranty and goes to the dealer for maintenance. Let me guess, your Toyota doesnt even need maintenance work, it just runs forever with nothing but gas. My point was unless you have some first hand knowledge about the repair rates of imports vs domestics in a large fleet you are basically pulling stuff out of thin air based on tired old stereotypes. Wouldn't the rental agencies have switched to imports years back if owning domestics was unprofitable?

Why do you continue to refer to GM, Ford and Chrysler as the "Big Three"???? They have not been the top three for years. They should be refered to as the three domestic brands, being that they also produce cars all over the world. They continue to produce less in the States, while foreign brands continue to bulid new factories in the States. Toyota outsells GM and Ford. Almost every other large car brand outsells Chrysler. Come on its time to change that phrase!

OS is on crack.
Honda doesn't have VVT?
Look up the meaning of i-VTEC before shouting your nonsense again, please.

"Please dont tell me you are seriously claiming most taxis in NYC are Toyotas"

Never said that. Siennas were the second largest fleet in NYC after Crown Vic, which is dying. The only reason neither will survive is that NYC pushes to all Hybrid taxi fleet.
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" There has not been a UAW strike vs an automaker in 11 years or so"

May be because makers gave on all demands?
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" Honda is still using 5 speed autos while GM has 6 speed autos "

This is abstraction. First of all, why should I care if mileage, manners is better with even 4 gears, as it was the case a year ago when 4AT RAV4 did better then any CVTs and 5ATs? Then there is a factor of gear hunting. As you know, the more gears there are the more chance of tranny hunting for them. So why do I need a lousy 6AT if I can get a perfect 5AT and Honda is as good as it gets at its 5ATs?

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"Honda doesnt even have continuous VVT on its engines yet"

While I can admit that Honda is a little stingy on putting out technology... Hell, they don't put disk brakes on all trims of Accord and the 60/40 rear split banch is an item of the higher trims. It would be crazy to blame Honda for their engine tech. Honda is a pioneer of the new engine technologies. Every manufacturer learned from them, when they produced small engines,which lasted 200K miles while small GM engines needed overhaul after 70K. Honda is constantly in research of new engine tricks. May be they decided to do things differently, may be they just on't want t ogive it to consumer yet. Surelly, they have something in their pocket. I will not be surprized if next year Accord will make class leading MPGs. Honda is an Engine company.

There has not been an UAW strike vs an automaker in 11 years or so?

Come on, who is drunk here?
They had one just less than 2 years ago for crying out loud!

Are you sure the strike was at GM or the suppliers? I know American Axle had a strike but thats not GM. Same with other suppliers. When suppliers stop working, GM stops making cars.

It must really suck to have to drink the GM kook-aid day in and day out. I could have bought a bottle of soda but instead I bought GM stock - LOL!

GM is the laughing stock of the entire automobile manufacturing world. Always has been and always will be until they finally auction off the last remains.

you're right, I won't buy a hyundai based on their efforts in the 90's. My friend bought a new one when they came out with their groundbreaking 7 or 10 year warranty. She needed to use that warranty multiple times within the first 3 years.

I would rather have a 3 year warranty and never need it, instead of a 10 year warranty and using it.

I do get regularly scheduled oil changes by wal-mart and my toyota dealer, but never had to go in for a recall or anything like that. Oh yeah, GM announced another recall today.

Will I ever buy american again? probably not. GM would have to be financially stable for at least a couple years for me to consider the CTS again.

it is sad, but true, but people still will not buy imports because of WWII. They claim "patriotism" because it is not socially acceptable to be outwardly racist anymore.

I think it is almost admirable the way you stand up for the big 3. then again, even guilty criminals have court-appointed attorneys.

"Toyota outsells GM and Ford."

That is blatantly untrue. Where are you getting your information? Toyota outsells Ford in the US, not GM.

J:

The UAW has not had a strike against any of the automakers since 1998 and that was against GM. I can't even tell you when they last had a strike against Ford or Chrysler. MAybe in the 80s? I'm just dealing with the facts, not speculation. You hate the UAW and you don't even know why. Not buying a car because its made by union labor is absurd because German and Japanese vehicles are made by union labor and then shipped here. Would you not buy a BMW because of union labor?

Tony:

You are full of excuses. Give me a break. Now you are telling me that 4 speed autos are OK as long as they work well. GM was doing that for a while and the press and import fanboys were crucifying them for not investing in the latest technology. Naturally people like you totally accept lagging in technology when Honda does it. HAve you looked at the mileage of the Element, Accord I-4, Pilot, TL, RL, MDX, etc.? Not class leading. The Civic is the closest Honda has to class leading mileage and even it is beat by the Corolla. The Accord for cylinder gets 21/30 with an auto vs 23/34 for the Fusion and the 5 speed auto is one reason for that. The Pilot gets 17/23 in spite of having worst in class hp and a reasonable curb weight. Why? 5 speed auto. I really can't understand your excuses for HOnda's engines. Honda was on the cutting edge with VTEC back in the 90s but times have changed. All of their top competitors have direct injection V6s or I6s on the market and many competitors have DOHC six cylinder engines with continuous VVT on the intake and exhaust side while HOnda is using SOHC V6s with a two stage timing system.

Andrew:

I find it interesting that nearly every individual who refuses to buy anything but Japanese cars just happens to know people who bought American, German and Korean cars that are unreliable. HAve you seen ANY evidence that recent Hyundais are unreliable beyong your friend's vehicle? I have not. In long term road tests done by magazines and CR Hyundais seem to hold up just fine. The fact that Hyundai offers such a warranty is proof that they believe in the quality of their product. Japanese car fans like to pretend that any warranty repair is akin to a major component failure. What did your friend's car get repaired? Transmission? AC? Electrical system? The fact that she used the warranty doesn't tell me much at all. She might have gotten a loose piece of trim tightened up. She may have gotten a bulb replaced. Without any details a warranty repair can be almost anything. Interestingly enough if you look at edmunds.com's consumer ratings American and Hyundai vehicles often get better ratings than the big names from Honda and Toyota.

As for recalls I'm sure you know Toyota has been issuing more and more in recent years and had more than GM in the past coupe of years. The majority of recalls are issued even though no one has actually been hurt. IN this age of liability automakers are quick to issue a recall just in case there is a slight chance of injury due to a defect. Don't bring up recalls unless you are going to hold them against Toyota.

"it is sad, but true, but people still will not buy imports because of WWII. They claim "patriotism" because it is not socially acceptable to be outwardly racist anymore."

Not sure what kind of company you keep but I don't know a single person who wouldn't buy an import because of WW2. This isn't 1970. Most people who were adults during the time of WW2 have passed away. Where are all these people that shun Japanese brands because of WW2 bias?

I think its interesting that you assess the balance sheets of car companies before buying a car. Since you say you need financial stability I suppose you won't even consider a Ford product. Toyota lost about $5B last year so I wonder where they rank on your scale. Since you basically will not consider anything that isn't Japanese under any circumstances I don't see the point of you trying to justify your position. You aren't going to consider American cars ever so why pretend there is any rhyme or reason? You are admitting you are biased and the quality of the vehicles is irrelevent to you. You don't like American cars simply because they are American cars. That is quite a closed minded view.

"GM is the laughing stock of the entire automobile manufacturing world. Always has been and always will be until they finally auction off the last remains."

Always have been? Wow. THey were #1 for almost 80 straight years and you say they have always been the laughing stock of the world? Who do you think the Japanese companies had to study when they wanted to learn how to become successful in America and the world? Your ignorance is amazing.

"You are full of excuses. Give me a break. Now you are telling me that 4 speed autos are OK as long as they work well..."

OS,
you have one terrible habit - to say, like if I told you what you are telling.
I don't have ANY excuses. I told you, I wouldn't buy Accord because of somewhat low mileage. But I wouldn't buy Fusion also. Because fusion is not an Accord in terms of interior comfort and the ride quality, and just the way powertrain works - Accord is THE BEST.
Technically, yes, you put more gears into that box the more efficient it will go on highway. But while putting 1000 wrong words into my mouth, you dismissed the point that for the longest time Toyota, Honda were doing better with less (gears). And now is simply a period where every manufacturer started to shift towards CSV, 6AT. So Honda will do it. But have you read reviews about GM 6AT? This is a gear hunter. I would rather have 1mpg less then a tranny like that. I've got a Highlander with 6AT and this is terrible. You really need to know your car to make it not shift all the time. It is smooth but it shifts, shifts, shifts.
Honda is still a cutting edge with their 3-4-6 system. May be it not working to the final result of saving great amount of fuel but they pulled off something here. A smooth engine, which does 3-4-6. May be this is just a first step of something, may be this a step back and they should of use direct fuel injection.

See, you say "...people like you totally accept lagging in technology when Honda does it..."

But I don't accept. I don't go and tell you "Accord is the best". I say, it rides the best, it has best powertrain, best upholstery, best assembly, best finish. But it locks many things which also important to me. But I would definitely not care if it had 5AT and everybody else 7AT if it did good on everything else.
But GM cars do give you some things statistically and then you sit in that car and see gap here, gap there, rattle there, material quality and on... you don't want miles and gears anymore.

So, think about, OS

You know, all of you are right. Based on a certain point in time. The imports no longer control the market for quality. They now share it with Ford and Ford is starting to beat them. Ford has been listening and they are changing. If you don't believe me, simply check it out. Spewing old facts does nothing for anyone. The data is clear. Yes, it is assembled in Mexico but the majority of everything else is US and the money stays here. All imports profits, no matter where they are built, go back to the host nation. Some companies were built on true American values, the others only copied the process and improved on it. Do we still have more to learn, yes - but we are trying. If you are looking for the most fuel effecient, safest and best design, you can find it today. At least Ford is trying, without government loans, to be the best American company again. Before you judge it on the past, give it at try. If you don't like it then please buy your import. We know they are good cars.

I get so tired of the old saw that the point of assembly makes a car more or less American. The point of assembly is the last step in a 3-4 year process of vehicle development. There are literally hundreds (if not thousands) of people involved and hundreds of millions of dollars spent before a vehicle gets to the build stage for design, prototyping, testing, market studies, etc. In the case of the big three, those dollars are predominantly spent right here. In the case of the imports, they are spent at their respective home countries.

For further perspective, consider this: Ford has more employees in the US than ALL the imports combined. Same can be said of GM.

"Because fusion is not an Accord in terms of interior comfort and the ride quality, and just the way powertrain works - Accord is THE BEST. "

That my friend is called a SUBJECTIVE analysis. You cannot back up or verify anything in the above statement. You prefer the Accord, but that doesn't mean its the best. Many of the car magazines disagree.

GM has had cylinder deactivation on the market for several years now. It is not exclusive to Honda and I believe GM had it on the market first. GM also uses it in more products, including the new Camaro. This is not exclusive to HOnda. Chrysler has had this tech on the 300 since 2004.

The 6 speed in the lambda crossovers was adjusted after the first model year to address gear hunting. I haven't seen any such complaints in reviews of the Traverse which came out last fall. The primary reason imports got better mileage was engine size, not transmission complexity. A car with a tiny engine and a 4 speed will get better mileage than the LS460 with its 8 speed auto. With engine sizes being equal you get better mileage with more gears. The Malibu gets 30mpg with 4 speed but 33mpg with 6 speed auto. Generally speaking more gears gives you more mileage.

"I don't go and tell you "Accord is the best". I say, it rides the best, it has best powertrain, best upholstery, best assembly, best finish. But it locks many things which also important to me. "

All SUBJECTIVE. Objectively speaking the Accord has one advantage over many competitors-rear seat space. Best assembly? Have you taken a micrometer out to measure panel gaps on other midsize cars? Virtually every midsize car has better fit and finish than any car of 15 years ago. Hyundai has excellent build quality these days. Do not fool yourself into thinking HOnda is the only car company that knows how to build a car. To a Honda fan the Accord WILL ALWAYS be the best car- based on subjective measures.

Andrew,

Toyota surpassed GM in worldwide sales. Maybe not the US, but that hardly matters anylonger. Ours is a global economy and the Companies that will survive will have to be sucessful Globaly, not just in the US. The US is not going to be the largest car market in the near future. China and India will be larger markets very soon!

Correction...above is in answer to Original Sheth, not Andrew.

Take a look at our history. Who manufactured the items used to keep our Country Free. There are great vehicles from foreign companies made in the US, but we do not own those facilities and can not rely on that manufacturing capacity to help us in time of need. I think the effort to support the BIG 3 is proper and should be praised. Is China, Japan or India buying BIG 3 products for the respective country service vehicles?

OS is apparently a moron.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/09/24/news/companies/gm_uaw_strikedeadline/index.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-09-25-uaw-wed_N.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/25/business/25auto.html

Or he was hiding his head in a hold underground when that happened? Or he was just living in the 20 states that GM's operation was not halted.
All I did was typing in UAW Strike 2007 in google.

Not to mention that he (OS) was trying to avoid K's comment about the VVT and i-VTEC.

It is amazing how misinformed some of the comments on here are. I applaud Sheth and some of the other posters on here that posted facts and not subjective opinions.

What Sheth was trying to say when comparing Americans not buying Japanese cars in the 70's to people not buying domestics right now is a perfectly valid comparison. People have forgotten what happened during WWII (rightly so) and began purchasing Japanese cars, but as of late, people cannot seem to forget the GM they bought in 1989. The automotive industry has changed dramatically over the past decade and even in the past few years. All cars from major manufacturers are better quality today than the highest quality, safest, most efficient, etc. cars from a decade ago. And as recent J.D. Power results show, the domestic automakers are tied or even on top in regards to quality. Other publications show that efficiency and value of domestic vehicles are also just as competitive.

It is true, our three domestic automakers have done a lot for this country, in terms of innovation and when this country was in need. During world wars, plants at GM, Ford, and Chrysler were converted to build tanks, engines, and cars (Chrysler's Willy anyone?) for our military. These companies have an amazing history. Just because they made some mistakes a couple of decades ago, people seem to quickly forget the good, and quickly dismiss them for uncompetitive and their need to disappear.

To all the naysayers: why don't you go out to some domestic dealerships and compare apples to apples. I know it's hard, but if you do it objectively, you'll be surprised at what you find.

Alex (www.truthaboutdomestics.com)

"...I believe GM had it on the market first [Cylinder deactivation]..."
You're correct. But it ended badly. Remember that too. No big deal? For you. For owners of those Caddys it was a BIG deal.

"...Best assembly?[Accord] Have you taken a micrometer out to measure panel gaps on other midsize cars?... "
I don't need micrometer. I've spent time in every major model Feb. at the car show. Without micrometer, with naked eye I saw gaps different on each side of the certain panels in Chevys. Ford Flex had such unfinished metal components under the hood that I told my son to keep his hands off not to cut himself. Looks like metal press chopped something, they just painted it over and they sent it for public display.

"...Virtually every midsize car has better fit and finish than any car of 15 years ago..."
Only midsize?

"... The primary reason imports got better mileage was engine size..."
Yea! I remember! 15 years ago we were calculating HP per CC. Hondas were the best!

"...People have forgotten what happened during WWII ..."

Right. They forgot that Ford was producing German military vehicles. And that Hitler called Henry Ford his personal friend and even gave him some medal.
So, why I would remember Imperial Japan if I have an enemy in Detroit?

David:

You are right about China but GM sells more vehicles in China than Toyota. It would be good for GM if the Chinese market continues to expand as it has. GM fell behind Toyota by a couple hundred thousand units but is still the second largest. Considering how many auto companies there are being #2 isnt exactly something to be embarrassed about. LEt's see if Toyota can stay at #1 for a decade, much less 77 years. VW plans to be #1 in about 9-10 years.

Tony:

when did I ask you to buy a Ford? If you believe buying a Ford somehow means that you support the views of Hitler you are really stretching. Just for the record, the US automakers were essentially barred from selling cars in Japan by the US government so the Japanese could have time to develop their own auto industry and create jobs. If that hadn't been done there would likely be GM and Ford models in Japan right now. But I'm sure you knew that.

J:

How long did that strike last? Since it was so short I did forget. Let me rephrase- the last time there was any strike that actually mattered and cost GM money it was 1998. If I recall that strike you references lasted a day or two. That said, there is no relevance. To say you wont buy a vehicle because the workers may have been on strike at some point in their lives is insane. Is that the best you can do? Again, I will ask will you buy a union made vehicle from Germany? Still waiting on that answer.

"OS is on crack.
Honda doesn't have VVT?
Look up the meaning of i-VTEC before shouting your nonsense again, please."

Reading is fundamental K and J. I said Honda does not have stepless VVT on intake and exhaust. VTEC is a two stage variable timing and lift system. It is not as complex as the continuously variable system used on GM's DOHC V6 and DOHC I-4. BMW and others use a similar system. Furthermore, most Honda VTEC engines only have VVT on one side- I believe it's the exhaust side. GM's V6 has VVT on intake and exhaust valves. With VTEC the timing and lift change when the engine hits a certain speed. Continuous VVT systems can vary timing across a broader range of circumstances. YOu are right, I am a moron though.

"To all the naysayers: why don't you go out to some domestic dealerships and compare apples to apples. I know it's hard, but if you do it objectively, you'll be surprised at what you find."

Some are afraid of what they might find. Trust me. Its much easier to stay in the virtual world and pretend its 1988 all over again. I wonder if these guys know the Cold War is over.

"You're correct. But it ended badly. Remember that too. No big deal? For you. For owners of those Caddys it was a BIG deal."

Tony:

Please try and stay with me here. I wasn't referring to the Cadillac motor. The electronics of the day were not advanced enough to allow reliable operation of cylinder shut off. I was talking about GM having AFM within the last 5 years on the Impala and their trucks/SUVs. The Impala has had it since 2005. The trucks got it in 2006. I believe the Odyssey debuted with VCM around the same time. Chrysler has had it since 2004. MB actualy had it for a few years on the S class in the early 2000s.

"Without micrometer, with naked eye I saw gaps different on each side of the certain panels in Chevys. "

Untrue and we both know it. Its a shame that you have no regard for the truth. Panel gaps on current Chevy products are equal to or better than comparable Honda products. On most Honda products there is at least a 1-2cm gap between door panels and dashes. This is found on Acura models as well. In exterior panel fit GM models are on par with German cars.

"Yea! I remember! 15 years ago we were calculating HP per CC. Hondas were the best!"

To bad its 2009 and they are no longer the best. If you can name a few Honda products with best in class mileage let me know. The RL and TSX may be candidates. The Accord, S2000, Ridgeline, Pilot, Element, MDX and TL are not. The Element gets 25mpg on the highway while the HHR gets up to 30.

OS,
Enough of your BS already.
So you would not recognize a strike that lasted less than what? A whole month? A strike is a STRIKE. No matter it is a minute, a second, or an hour. IT WAS A STRIKE.
So what you said about no strike since 1998 is simply BS.
You did not even bother to look up the meaning of i-VTEC as K had suggested but shouting more nonsense from the bottom of your gut not your brain.
The Honda's system is mostly on the intake, except the performance focused DOHC VTEC engines. The i-VTEC on the other hand has continuous VVT.
And you went to say that you said Honda does not have VVT on both intake and exhaust. Well, just to remind what have you said before to Andrew:
"GM is most definitly not behind any import brand in engineering. Ford is catching up with the 3.5L V6 and Ecoboost. Honda doesnt even have continuous VVT on its engines yet while GM has it on virtually every DOHC engine it makes."
All I saw was saying Honda doesn't (Typo there) even have continuous VVT on its engines.
Telling me to read? I thought you were the one that did not read your own garbage.
For such an uneducated person who would not even bother to look up facts before shouting his nonsense, it is pointless to further educate him about his method of thinking (from his gut not his brain).

Furthermore, when the other poster was talking about HP/cc, OS went on to say about mileage.

It ia just like saying when McD has the best value of food but all of a sudden OS went on to say that BK kills least cow.
Totally irrelvant answer. Just what I expected from an undereducated domestic fighter who fights for every domestic automaker with nothing other than myths, spins and bitterness.

J:

There was a one day strike in 2007. My bad, I did overlook that lengthy strike. The last crippling strike was in 1998. I ALSO said I don't recall ANY recent strikes against ford or Chrysler. If you have Googled anything to contradict that let me know.

Honda's V6 does not have continuous VVT like GM's V6 or BMW's I-6. The iVTEC on four cylinder engines does have continuous VVT. Only the 3.7L in the Tl SHAWD and RL has VVT on intake and exhaust, the other versions of the V6 do not. So you were right about one thing, there is a Honda engine with continous VVT. I should have limited my comments to V6 engines which is what I was talking about in the first place. The initial statement in all of this is still WRONG. In case you forgot someone said that American automakers are trailing Honda in engine technology. They are not.

Still looking for that production Honda engine with direct injection.

J:

I don't need to address specific output. I never made any claims about specific output: Tony mentioned that metric out of the blue. Specific output is MEANINGLESS. It's about engineering bragging rights and little else. Honda engines rev higher than average and that enables them to generate more hp/L than many comparable engines. The problem with this is torque output. Honda engines are near the top of their classes in specific output but near the bottom in torque. The larger versions of the SOHC V6 are better in the torque department than many older Honda engines but their specific output is in line with competitors. There is no proof that having a higher specific output leads to better fuel efficiency. BMW is abandoning high specific output NA engines and going with lower revving turbo engines with great low end torque. There is only so high you can push the redline of an engine and refusing to add displacement will always lead to meager torque output which is why the M3 and M5 have so little torque compared to other high end coupes and sedans. One reason Asian cars have long been ahead in specific output is that there are taxes and fees associated with displacement in some countries. Such fees don't exist here and there was little reason for American cars to sacrifice torque in the name of engine downsizing.

One more note on unions and strikes- they are abundant in Europe. Does that mean you wont buy European?

"Reading is fundamental K and J. I said Honda does not have stepless VVT on intake and exhaust."

If you got back to that statement, it remains true.

3.7L V6 has dual VVT but its not variable.

i-VTEC I-4 has dual VVt with continous adjustment on the intake valves according to what I've read. correct me if I'm wrong.

My statement was that GM engines (ecotec 2.4L, 2L turbo, 3.6L V6) have stepless VVT on intake and exhaust and Honda's do not. Have you proven that wrong?

Never expected anything less from you, OS. Bending the meaning of what you said to fit your needs.
At first you said "There has not been a UAW strike vs an automaker in 11 years or so"
Proven wrong, then you turned and spin what you've said there was no strike against Ford or Chrysler.
To be complete honest, I could not find where you were referring as "The initial statement in all of this is still WRONG. In case you forgot someone said that American automakers are trailing Honda in engine technology. They are not."
Let me know where that post it if you don't mind please. (Did you mix it up with another post since you were fighting with every body)
Then there comes the change in statement, "Honda's V6 does not have continuous VVT like GM's V6 or BMW's I-6." When in original form, it was "GM is most definitly not behind any import brand in engineering. Ford is catching up with the 3.5L V6 and Ecoboost. Honda doesnt even have continuous VVT on its engines yet while GM has it on virtually every DOHC engine it makes.", nothing was mentioned about Honda's V6 engine.

Then you went on to say that specific output was not important. Well, guess what? Last domestic commercial I watched, it clearly said best in class horsepower rating.
If Honda can make the engine rev so high, why can't the others? Higher specific output meaning they are capable of doing the same thing with less displacement. Think that's easy task?
And then you went on to say that the VVT Honda offers is only on the intake. Well, make that clear from the beginning and that saves me and your own time. I was still referring to your original statement, but you decided that was not your best shot, so you threw another spun version of the statement at me. Pointless argument.
Last but not least, I have never said about anything that I would not buy a product when their workers had been on strike. Where did you get that in your head is a question to me.

No way my tax dollars should be spent on foreign car companies. The ford may be assembled in mexico but the major part of the content is US. Foreign companies do not build there cars here they put them together here and not all of them are put together here. SUPPORT AMERICAN COMPANIES NOT FOREIGN COMPANIES.

OS.
You're one confusing person. I would say one thing you, just as J noted transfer to another.

Lets clarify.
About Ford, I didn't talk to you. Just as general comment on someone else;s comment.

About cyl deactivation. You said GM was first and I know that you pointed to recent history. But I took you a little farther back to make you even more right. Then you admited yourself that Odyssey came out with Cyl deactivation at about same time. I took you were I wanted you to go!

Then I talked about gaps in interior. You moved to exterior. Ok. Missunderstanding. Fine. But I insist that interior paneling in Chevys suck (compare to Honda). Most memorable - the Traverse. In the center of the dash it has a small compartment. It was so visibly noticeable that the lid of that compartment had a gap on the left side about 3 times whider then on the right side (looking directly from the center). In Malibu, around dash trim didn't connect well together with corners leaving up to 5mm gaps. I mean, with all the cheap plastic of the Accord LX, the plastic is well put together. And the upholstery is better on Hondas.

As Honda engines goes. You again waived off the path of conversation. First you've mentioned that Honda engines were smaller. That is when I told that per CC they had better HP, why make bigger? So, what's the big deal? What is your problem? Yes, they made more revs, more hp/cc and more mpg while GM was making big CC. But the key here is that GM, Ford, Chrysler, Daewoo, Fiat, Russian, VW, none of them could produce a reliable and long lasting SMALL engine, which didn't require overhaul after 50-70K miles. Honda was and still is brilliant with its small engines!

George,

Part of the revenue still went to Mexico. Why can't they build their vehicles here instead of Mexico?

"Which car companies have lost money quarter after quarter and are behind in R&D?"

This is the comment that started the talk about technology implementation. I'm not sure how hard you were looking. I'm not fighting with everyone- you seem to be operating under the assumption that everyone agrees with you. I am disagreeing with you because you refuse to acknowledge Honda has no palpable lead in technology relative to GM or Ford.

You were right about the one day strike. I already said that. I'm not sure how many times you want me to acknowledge the one day strike. I did forget about that one since it was so short. The entire strike issue is hardly relevent anyway but if you feel like a big man because you are correct the 2007 strike feel free to keep mentioning it in every post.

"nothing was mentioned about Honda's V6 engine."

If you bothered to read I already said I should have limited my comments to V6 engines. The four cylinder does have continuous cam phasing on the intake side. I ALREADY said that was a mistake on my part. I also already said that unlike GM, Honda's OHC engines do not have continuous phasing on intake and exhaust sides.

I have no idea why you are comparing specific output to maximum hp. The Traverse has more hp and more specific output than the Pilot so either way you go the Chevy engine is superior. Specific output does not really correlate to great efficiency and thus its pointless. As an example the M3 gets 14/20 even though it weighs only 3700lbs and has a high revving, small V8 engine with a tremendous amount of power density. Where are the benefits? The G8 GXP gets almost the same mileage in spite of weighing over 300lbs more and having a 6.2L engine. If the G8 weighed the same as the M3 the Pontiac would be more efficient.

As for high revving engines, I suggest you actually check out the redlines on current GM engines. The 3.6L in the Malibu redlines at 6900rpm which is higher than Honda's SOHC V6. The DI version of the engine redlines at 7000rpm. The NA ecotec also has a high redline as does the LS7 V8. Aside from the high performace versions of Honda's four cylinde r(Civic Si, TSX, S2000) I am not aware of any Honda engines that redline at 7000rpm. I believe Honda's V6 redlines at 6700rpm.

"Last but not least, I have never said about anything that I would not buy a product when their workers had been on strike. Where did you get that in your head is a question to me."

I asked the question because you are focused on pointing out labor unrest. If striking or unionization of the workers isn't an issue why are we even discussing UAW work stoppages? I personally don't care who assembles the cars but you and a few others seem to think that is very important. I guess workers that can't strike make better cars in the opinion of some people.

Tony:

You mentioned VCM as an example of Honda's engineering leadership. I was merely pointing out that Honda was not the leader in this technology. That's all I was saying. What is confusing about that?

I cannot take your assessments of Chevy interiors seriously because it is obvious that you go over them with a magnifying glass while being totally oblivious to Honda interior quality. Have you been in the Pilot? Poorly finished plastics, hard plastics, undamped doors, large gaps between dash and doors, etc. Accord (and TSX and TL) has a noticeable gap between the dash and doors as well. In most Acura models the trim on the dash and doors does not come close to touching when the doors are shut. I even noticed this on the MDX. In the Fit I also noticed an abundance of hard plastics, dash-door panel gaps and an interior with tons of components which means lots of places where panels adjoin. Most modern interiors are moving towards less peices so interiors look cohesive.

I have only been in one Traverse but I noticed no major fit issues at the auto show. I don't think 5mm is a large gap but perhaps I am not used to Honda's standards. Current GM vehicles are as well made inside and out as Honda vehicles. This is what the press is saying and this is what my observations confirm. GM certainly uses softer plastics more liberally than Honda.

"Part of the revenue still went to Mexico. Why can't they build their vehicles here instead of Mexico?"

Labor costs are cheaper and Mexico is a market for the Big 3. One reason they assemble products there is because they sell products there. VW assembles US bound cars in Mexico and Toyota and Honda assemble cars/SUVs in Canada. I've never heard anyone complain about Canadian made Toyotas and Hondas.

Tony:

I am sure there was a time when Honda was a leader in small engine performance and durability. These days everyone can make a decent four cylinder engine. The problem with biased Honda/Toyota boosters is that they can't let go of the past. In 1985 your points would have much more signifigance. These days all manufacturers are using the latest engineering and production methods to churn out nice four cylinder engines. When you have a small engine, you burn less fuel. Before Saturn came about I don't think any American manufacturer had ever made engines as small as Honda's small fours. The Saturn SL was capable of Civic like mileage because it had a tiny, anemic engine just like contemporary civics. Even now, the main reason the Civic is amongst the leaders in mileage (by a whopping 1-2mpg) is because it has a smallest in class 1.8L engine with 140hp. Small cars from Chevy, Nissan, Mazda and others get slightly worse mileage due to larger engines that produce more hp and torque. It's all about trade offs. If the Cobalt had a 1.8L engine its hp would decrease and its efficiency would increase and likely match that of the civic.

I dont know how long it's been since engines couldn't last more than 70k miles, but I am sure those days are long gone. Time to move on.

OS,
"...Current GM vehicles are as well made inside and out as Honda vehicles. This is what the press is saying and this is what my observations confirm..."

According to the Edmunds.com, during their long term test of Saturn Aura they had big problems with a some plastic interior parts coming off completely. According to them, the dealer fixed it a couple of times but problem persisted. And the general feel about interior quality of Aura was negative. And this is from Auto Pros...

As for engines - you're dead wrong. Still, not all manufacturers can make a 4 cyl engine that will go 200K without problems. May be Honda, Toyota, and Mazda(only some non-Ford engines). Mazda engines, generally, have regular Emission components failures when high miles, while the mechanics is solid.

You said:
"Another issue is that by only buying cars made by the Big Three, the government is missing out on some great vehicles made in the U.S. by foreign automakers, like the Toyota Tundra and Camry, which are high on Cars.com’s American Made Index and are arguably more “American” than the most fuel-efficient Big Three vehicle: The Mexican-built Ford Fusion Hybrid".
The truth about this is that the Japanese uses American labor to achieve “more “American” than the most fuel-efficient Big Three vehicle”, then all the profits goes directly to Japan. Whereas “The Mexican-built Ford Fusion Hybrid pays for Mexican labor and the profits remain and are invested in the USA.

OS. Edmunds.com Long term Aura test. Read

OS, Tony, J, Andrew:

I think you guys are making a lot of these interior quality issues up.

I don't think I heard anyone say that Toyota has VVT-i on all of their more recent engines.