Toyota has announced that the 2010 Prius will be rated 50/49 mpg city/highway. The company had previously announced only a combined mileage rating of 50 mpg. The EPA ratings do not take into account the new Prius' Eco mode, which the company says adjusts the throttle and air conditioning to make the car more efficient. The Prius also features an all-electric EV mode, a Power mode for more-spirited acceleration, and a standard driving mode, which is the mode the EPA tested.
Last week, Cars.com was able to drive the new Prius and talk with a number of its engineers, but we won't be allowed to discuss the mileage we observed during our testing until March 25.
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This is a good example of how the technology offered by Ford in the Fusion pales in comparison to what Toyota brings to the table. Once again Toyota does a smack-down of the competition. I hear GM is going to debut a Volt electric lawn mower in five years. LOL
Andy,
I think they do different things. The Fusion does outperform the Camry Hybrid which is its true competition, not the dedicated Prius.
Trust me, if the Fusion (or Camry) looked like a wedge, was lightweight as a Prius, and drove like a toy, it would be as fuel efficient as the pruis too. You can't compare the two. If you are, then you may want to consider why the LS600 cost 4 times as much and gets half the mileage. There is just no comparison. The prius is not for everyone- for those that it does work for, bravo.
Broq
Jalopnik compares the 2010 Fusion to the Prius. I'll take a respected source like Jalopnik over Cars.com any day of the week.
BS,
We love Jalopnik!
However methinks you're trying to be sarcastic.
They certainly might be cross-shopped but even Ford will tell you the Fusion hybrid is to compete with the Camry, not Prius.
Fusion is really to compete against the time, which is left for Ford to start selling.
It is all about how deep the Ford's reputation is damaged.
Dave, Brian is correct. The Camry is a larger and more luxurious car than the Fusion. Besides, Ford learned everything they know about hybrids from Toyota, licensing Toyota's system to avoid being sued for patent infringement. Broq, the Prius weighs 3,000 lbs and is a mid-size car. It drives just fine, is quiet inside and would probably smoke whatever you're driving up to 30 mph - the electric motor in a Prius has 295 lb ft. of torque.
hybrit,
You are not telling the truth. Ford did not steal or license any Toyota technology. The companies had similar technology that they developed independently and came to some kind of patent agreement to avoid issues. Fords system is proprietary.
The Prius is a dedicated hybrid with a slippery shape and less power than the Fusion. The Camry is not larger or more luxurious than the Fusion, I cant imagine where you got that ridiculous notion.
To say the Prius embarrasses the fusion means that it REALLY embarrasses the camry hybrid that is less efficient than the Fusion. Not everyone wants a hatchback and soft handling- this is why the Fusion hybrid exists.
Ford used licensed technology on the Escape Hybrid. This new Fusion hybrid was developed in house and is Ford's design.
If you are so intent on badmouthing something then why don't you badmouth that excuse called the Altima hybrid or how about all the other companies out there who don't even have hybrids for sale.
That's okay...those other companies are probably investing in diesel technology so Hybrit ends up having to pay more for his groceries.
"Fusion is really to compete against the time, which is left for Ford to start selling.
It is all about how deep the Ford's reputation is damaged."
Can you write something in English please.
I'd love to see one post actually not turn into a domestic vs. import bash fest for absolutely no reason.
I have spent alot of time with both cars (regular fusion), and I can assure you, sir, there is no comparison in the way they two drive. And before you say anything about the hybrid fusion not being out, I will say this- when I say drive- I mean a lot more than just the engine. The Prius may be a midsize car, but the Fusion and the Camry are still larger midsize cars. And the fusion weighs around 3700 pounds.
To me, this is not an import vs. domestic thing- it is more a Prius vs all cars thing. The Prius sacrifices alot to get the mileage that it does, I think other cars- Fusion, Civic, Camry, Escape are better comprises.
Broq
I wonder if "adjusting the a/c" means turning it down to the point the car gets hot. Many people will continue to buy this car, mainly for being so green. it looks a lot better, IMO, than last year's model. The Al Gore lovers out there will probably buy these just to be more "green."
DaveT.
Unfortunately, everything that's posted on here brings about comments from those who refuse to give the domestic brands credit for ANYTHING. One would think that we can all agree the Fusion hybrid is an impressive car but alas the import only faction has nothing but criticism for the Fusion because it doesn't get 50mpg. Too bad there seem to be at least half dozen people who do nothing but patrol the threads looking for stomp out any positivity regarding American branded products.
Toyota is more domestic than Ford, especially when it comes to hybrids. The Fusion Hybrid is built in Hermosillo, Mexico. Thirty-five percent of the 2010 Toyota Prius will be built in Blue Springs, Mississippi, starting in June 2010.
Ford is unAmerican.
Sheth, now I understand why you are so maligned. I never accused Ford of stealing anything so don't misrepresent what I wrote, you unwashed waste of food. Ford did in fact license Toyota's hybrid system. The agreement you refer to included Ford giving Toyota its advanced diesel technology in return for the hybrid technology. I hate to break this to you, but the Fusion happens to be a rebadged Mazda 6 -it's a Japanese car through and through with a slightly modified version of Toyota's hybrid system. The new Prius is an incredible car that will average 50 mpg - that's 21 mpg better in town than the VW diesel others are touting, using cheaper fuel. Give Toyota credit for what it has done and shared with others.
I've owned a second generation Prius for over three years, and like it a lot. The car's fit and finish, reliability, fuel economy, and low emissions suit me fine. The Prius is no race car, and it isn't the hybrid for everybody. I look forward to test driving the Fusion Hybrid: it looks great, and all the early reviews I've read have been positive. Kudos to Ford for not seeking a bailout from the federal government, and for building a hybrid that deserves the buying public's serious attention!
I was invited to a 2010 Prius unveiling last weekend and got to drive the new Prius and ask all about it; I also signed a waiver saying I won't blog about is LOL. Let's just say it will be worth checking out folks!
hybrit:
Ford's hybrid system was developed independently of Toyotas. period. Ford does not purchase anything from Toyota. Only Nissan uses Toyota's hybrid system for the Altima hybrid. If you bothered to read up on the Fusion hybrid you would know it has several improvements relative to the system used in the Camry and the Escape hybrid. You are totally incorrect and I dare you to produce ONE link that backs up your assertion that ford is using Toyota hybrid technology in thier products.
Furthermore, the Fusion is not a rebadged 6, it shares a platform with the last gen 6. Ford owned 33% of Mazda until recently and the two companies share platforms and engines. The engines used in the 3, 6 and CX-9 are derivatives of Ford engines. The fusion has totally unique styling and better fuel economy relative to the Mazda 6. The two cars arent even made at the same factory.
Capers:
Check your sources. Toyota has postponed the new plant indefinitely. Even if it ever does open it will be nothing more than a final assembly location because the Prius suppliers are in Japan. Toyota has investing nothing in this country related to a supply chain for hybrid vehicles. I believe some camry hybrids are made in the US but initially that wasnt the case.
Dave,
Either Car and Driver or Motor Trend did a real world comparo of the Fusion Hybrid and the Camry Hybrid.
The Fusion Hybrid's number was better on PAPER, but the Camry Hybrid did better in real world. Mind to try and explain what has gone wrong?
C.
You are incorrect. The Fusion hybrid was more efficient than the Camry in C&D's test. The margin was smaller than the margin appears to be in the EPA test however. In that test Fusion was 1st in mileage, Altima 2nd, Camry 3rd (by small margin) and Malibu 4th. Road tests of the Fusion have produced averages in the mid to high 30s. Camry hybrid routinely returns low 30s in testing.
C,
Def. provide a link to the test. But most likely C&D had a prototype Fusion and a broken in, production Camry. Could easily explain the problem but for the most part we've found the EPA numbers to be very accurate.
Dave, eh, I meant Sheth.
I thought I said either Car and Driver or Motor Trend in my last post.
Apparently, Motor Trend was the one I was quoting.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/112_0901_2010_ford_fusion_hybrid_2009_toyota_camry_hybrid/fuel_economy.html
And as we are all well aware that C&D is always the more pedal to the metal one comparing to MT.
http://www.businessweek.com/autos/autobeat/archives/2008/12/ford_fusion_smo.html
Did they say the Ford's system was partially licensed from Toyota's patented rights?
K,
Good link. The article makes it clear that Ford did not license Toyota technology with the Escape hybrid. They used technology that would've infringed on Toyota's patents and thus an agreement was reached. As I said, Ford developed their system totally independently of Toyota. Rumors spread like wildfire on the internet and get repeated as fact by people like Hybrit.
Thanks for the link:
Quickly, driving at 70 mph isn't what the EPA does and going over 60-65 mph greatly reduces hwy mileage. that's pretty common knowledge.
They also don't mention weather conditions. But I assume it was in sunny california, but if it was in cold detroit that would definitely explain it. Also, did both have a/c on?off? windows up, down etc. were they driven behind one another so they experienced the identical number of stops, waiting at lights? Not sure. But a mpg here and there could probably change easily if they repeated the same exact tests. That's how we do the Hybrid Mileage Challenges.
K,
Thanks for confirming that Ford knew they were infringing on Toyota's technology and had to license Toyota Parts to build their hybrids. In fact they had to give Toyota their patented advanced diesel technology to compensate what they copied from Toyota. People like Sheth try to tell everyone that black is white and that the Ford Fusion really isn't a Mazda 6 under the skin.
From the archives of MSNBC:
TOKYO - "Toyota Motor Corp. said Tuesday that Ford Motor Co. would use some of its hybrid engine technology, in a pact that underlines the Japanese auto giant’s strong lead in eco-friendly gasoline-electric systems.
Toyota, which recently overtook Ford to become the world’s second-largest automaker, is keen to see the overall market for hybrids grow while promoting its technology and expanding its hybrid lineup. It has said it might supply hybrids to other auto makers as part of its goal to produce 300,000 of the eco-friendly vehicles a year by the middle of the decade.
Under the agreement, Toyota’s patents on gasoline-electric hybrid engine system control and emission purification have been licensed for use in Ford’s own hybrid system, which is under development."
There are plenty of similar articles that all say the same thing, Sheth(WOF).
Dave,
They apparently did drive the vehicle at the same time back to back, so the lights issue should be minimal. But it might be a good idea to shoot them some e-mail to confirm for that.
C,
That's not what my post was about ;)
We'll be doing many mileage challenges in the future, expect that to be one of them.
Also I took meticulous notes of my Prius drive and the mileage it returned under different situations/modes. Look for it on March 25.
Dave, we'll all be waiting for that post. I hope it performs as well as the EPA says it will.
hybrit:
Ford does not use Toyota's Synergy Drive system and never will. They developed their technology independently. Once it was discovered that some of their tech was going to infringe on Toyota's patents they had to come to some sort of agreement. Your original statement was that Ford uses a slightly modified version of Synergy Drive and that is a flat out lie. The quote you listed above clearly tells you the pantent agreement is related to TWO parts of the hybrid system. I dont think you are stupid enough to believe those are the only two components in Ford's hybrid system. Next you will tell me GM is using Toyota's system to. Nissan is the only manufacturer that is totally borrowing Toyota's system. Keep searching for links that prove otherwise. You are factually challenged.
C:
C&D's test found the Fusion to be more efficient than the Camry. Mt's test may not have shown the same results but C&Ds results do validate the EPA's claims.
Hybrit:
"Ford Motor Company independently developed a system with key technologies similar to Toyota's HSD technology in 2004. As a result, Ford licensed 21 patents from Toyota in exchange for patents relating to emissions technology.[4] It is currently offered in an SUV, the Ford Escape, though a hybrid Ford Fusion will be released with Ford's second-generation hybrid drivetrain in the future.[5] The four-cylinder hybrid Escape achieves an increase in mileage, and is rated by the EPA with a combined 34 mpg, a 36% improvement over other similar sized SUVs from Subaru and Honda (Forester and CR-V, 25 mpg combined).[6]"
The above quote is from Wikepedia under "Hybrid Synergy Drive". There was an exchange of patents but the media decided to frame the story as "Ford agrees to use Toyota technology" as if they were dropping HSD into Ford products. I found a few articles that tried to imply that even though the facts dont support that idea.
Sheth,
So what you are saying is that you take one side over the other, and not the whole automobile journalists' results.
Isn't that a bit biased?
Dave,
March 25? Did Toyota put a seal on you guys? That's so far away...
C,
No C, its not biased. The initital issue was that someone asked Dave to address the fact that the Camry was more fuel efficient than the Fusion in spite of Ford's claims. As I stated in my previous post media drives of the Fusion recorded mileage from the mid 30s to low 40s, but most seemed to agree that driven normally the car returns mid to upper 30s consistenty. In spite of the MT test, most reviews I have seen of the camry hybrid have recorded mileage no greater than 34mpg. We have ONE source that claims the camry achieves slightly better mileage and numerous sources that validate ford's statements about the car. BTW, the EPA sets the test procedures and the Fusion merely submits to those procedures to get rated. If you really have such an issue with the 41/36 numbers your issue is with the test, not Ford. Notice you haven't heard anythign from Toyota challenging the EPA's rankings of the two cars. Instead, Toyota has shifted focus to the 50mpg Prius. One other point, if I remember correctly MT rated the Fusion over the Camry even if the Camry got slightly better mileage. Lets not forget, MT loves the camry and considers it the benchmark amongst family sedans over the Accord and Malibu.
March 25th is likely an embargo date for all media. They probably want reviews to hit a few days or weeks before the cars show up at dealers. This is common.
Yes March 25th is the embargo date on all driving impressions. We can only talk about car contents and features, not even how we liked the nav system or thought the stereo sounded.
Sheth on March 2: "Ford did not steal or license any Toyota technology."
Sheth today: "Ford licensed 21 patents from Toyota..."
Why don't you show some character and admit you were wrong. If you had admitted then what you admitted today you would have saved many unnecessary posts. You are obviously not an engineer so I'll try to explain this to you as best I can: the engine control module is the essence of Hybrid Synergy Drive. All the rest of the parts, the atkinson cycle engine, the AC induction motor, the batteries, the planetary gear transmission are all off the shelf technology anybody can copy. In other words the hybrid engine control system is not just a part - it is Hybrid Synergy Drive. If it's just a part why didn't Ford develop its own? Simple, they couldn't. They licensed Toyota's control system, right down to the energy monitor graphics. Please stop minimizing Toyota's accomplishment in making Ford's hybrids possible. The Japanese did their share of copying in the 1970s, producing knockoffs of Mercedes Benz overhead cam engines and Alfa Romeo gearboxes. Toyota even licensed the Chevrolet inline six for it's Land Cruiser and used the same basic architecture until 1992. Today the shoe is on the other foot and Detroit is copying the Japanese. Give credit where credit is due.
Hybrit:
You are wrong again. I actually have a mechanical engineering degree. My initial statement was technically incorrect because Ford did license something from Toyota. The point I was trying to convey was that Ford did not license Synergy Drive from Toyota and put it in their products. I was not clear in what I was trying to say but your statements are still incorrect. You said that Ford is using Toyotas hybrid technology and suggested that ford did not engineer its own system. That is a lie. The articles CLEARLY state that ford developed its system independently.
"Today the shoe is on the other foot and Detroit is copying the Japanese. Give credit where credit is due. "
Wrong. The industry is always about constant innovation. Numerous companies have been working on the concept of hybrid propulsion but HOnda got a hybrid to market first. Ford is not "coyping" Toyota by offering a hybrid system. Ford, like Toyota, saw benefits to the technology and decided to invest in a system. You must have serious comprehension issues if you read all of those links an came away with the conclusion that Ford is using Synergy Drive because they are too inept to develop their own technology. Every link shown above contradicts that view and disproves your theory. You are arguing with facts that cannot be changed.
"If it's just a part why didn't Ford develop its own? Simple, they couldn't. They licensed Toyota's control system, right down to the energy monitor graphics. "
Can you read? Did you not read the articles that said FORD DEVELOPED THEIR SYSTEM INDEPENDENTLY and realized that Toyota had patents on such a system? Ford was able to develop its on control system but launching such a system after Toyota would have infringed on existing patents potentially so they licensed use of the patented tech from Toyota to avoid conflicts. You have not produced ONE single article that supports your fantasy that Ford had to run to Toyota for help because they were unable to develop the control software alone. Nissan is using Toyota's system because they have no in house hybrid powertrain to speak of at this point. Ford was not in that situation.
"They licensed Toyota's control system, right down to the energy monitor graphics. Please stop minimizing Toyota's accomplishment in making Ford's hybrids possible."
The graphics in GM's system look similar to those in Synergy Drive. Does that mean GM's two mode system came from Toyota as well? Your logic is shaky to say the least.
Stop minimizing Ford's accomplishment. I have yet to hear you address GM's hybrid system in your rants about how the US is dependent upon Japan for any an all technical breakthroughs. How was Gm able to develop a system without involvement from Toyota? I would love to know.
Kudos to you for admitting you were wrong, FINALLY, and for finally acknowledging Toyota's mentorship of Ford. FYI, Ford did compensate Toyota by handing over it's advanced diesel engine designs. One more correction: Toyota introduced the Prius in 1997, before Honda introduced the Insight. They just waited to introduce the Prius to the US, so to the uninformed it might appear incorrectly that Honda was first to the market.
hybrit,
I am waiting for you to admit that ford did not use Toyota's system in their products. You posted links that clearly proved your intitial premise to be false and you continued on repeating the same inaccurate information. Will you acknowlege that Ford and Toyota developed hybrid systems INDEPENDENTLY? Toyota did not "mentor" Ford in any way and Toyota did not get any appreciable revenue from the licensing agreement. Basically Ford had to pay the Piper since Toyota got two pieces of the system to market first. Ford still has over 100 patents on its own system. I'm sure GM has several hundred on their two mode system. Interestingly enough, when the Europeans decided they wanted to get into the hybrid game they decided to collaborate with GM instead of trying to license technology from Toyota.
Insight was first sold in the US- that was what I was talking about. Either way, my statement about MULTIPLE automakers working on hybrids simultaneously is correct. I dont know if Honda or Toyota started first but they got their products to the market around the same time.
Every point you have made about Ford stealing or copying from Toyota are asking Toyota for help or using Toyota's synergy drive system with few changes is blatantly inaccurate. I understand that you are passionate in your beliefs that no solid engineering comes out of America but your zealotry doesn't always line up with reality.
Another example of Detroit being ahead would be direct injection. Toyota uses DI on 3 products, all of them under the Lexus brands. Honda and Nissan have a combined total of zero vehicles with direct injection. GM currently has 8 vehicles with direct injection technology with three more on the way this calendar year. Ford is launching 3 vehicles this year with DI. Your logic about Detroit needing to lean on Japan for innovation doesn't hold water.
Stupid Shet, I love how Hybrit actually showed what you wrote, and how it directly contradicted a later statement by you and yet you want him to admit he is wrong.
And yet again you have no comprehension of what you are talking about. Do you know how much technology is involved in 21 patents? You think there is only two pieces of technology? Do you even understand what a patent is? And it is not like Toyota just beat Ford to the "market" to get the patents. If Ford had invented the stuff first they would get the patent (or at least be able to get rid of Toyota's patent), that is how it works in the US.
Ford is licensing a part of Toyota's hybrid system, a fundamental part from all that I have read, so saying that Ford has a modified Synergy Drive system is not inaccurate. If they are licensing a part of the system they did not develop the system independently, got it? No, you don't, but whatever.
I also think it is hilarious that you still post with this idea that you have facts yet you have never posted a single link to a reputable source. You tell everyone else to bring facts or that the facts are what they are, but yet you don't bring any facts.
Numerous companies have been working on the concept of hybrid propulsion but HOnda got a hybrid to market first.
-I love stuff like this from you. You got schooled and then you try and say you meant something else. You have got to be kidding.
And yet you like to say all those out there are attacking you, and they are the ones starting the domestic v. import wars, you are the one who starts that crap on every post. You go hog wild without any background for the stuff you say.
"Ford is licensing a part of Toyota's hybrid system, a fundamental part from all that I have read, so saying that Ford has a modified Synergy Drive system is not inaccurate. "
Yes it is innaccurate. Also, learn how to spell my name. Ford licensed a couple of control systems- that is not the same as purchasing Synergy Drive from Toyota and installing a complete system into the Escape. Ford developed their OWN hybrid system. If you can produce a link showing that Ford asked Toyota for help or proving that Ford didn't do any development work on its system please do so. If not, please stop typing. BTW, I provided information from Wikepedia's defintion of Synergy Drive- feel free to look it up yourself. It clearly states that Ford developed its own system. You are wrong, immature and annoying- as usual.
"And yet you like to say all those out there are attacking you, and they are the ones starting the domestic v. import wars, you are the one who starts that crap on every post."
Never said any such thing.
PLEASE produce ONE link backing your position. Just one. Thats all that I ask. I know you wont respond because you have no grasp of the facts and are here simply to jump on my back. I guess you are trying to make a name for yourself by being the ignorant attack dog. You embarass yourself everytime you post here- trust me. This is why you are making more enemies everyday here. BTW, stop pretending that everyone who disagrees with you is really me because even you arent stupid enough to believe that. NO ONE agrees with you. At least no one intelligent. Get over it.
Stupid Shet, what links do you want the ones showing that Ford licensed technology from Toyota? I thought you had seen that already, but here it is anyway:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C02E6DE153EF933A25750C0A9629C8B63
And if it is just a little control system and Ford could develop their own, then why did they license Toyota's? And since when is Wikipedia a good source of factual information? Ford took a license from Toyota because they couldn't use the system without it. How about you produce a link that says the licensed technology was only an insignificant control part? I don't see anything like that on Wikipedia.
I never said Ford used a complete system, but yes they licensed Toyota's and used it. You know that. I love how you can't actually admit what that means.
DaveT.
Unfortunately, everything that's posted on here brings about comments from those who refuse to give the domestic brands credit for ANYTHING. One would think that we can all agree the Fusion hybrid is an impressive car but alas the import only faction has nothing but criticism for the Fusion because it doesn't get 50mpg. Too bad there seem to be at least half dozen people who do nothing but patrol the threads looking for stomp out any positivity regarding American branded products.
-Crying, and crying, yet you can't admit how it really is.
Seriously I don't need to make a name for myself and I am not an attack dog, you just try to attack people and I am going to put you in your place, every time. Go ahead and invent more people who support your side, no one else does. Your inability to grasp reality (Consumer Reports?) is why I will post the correct information that is almost always opposed to what you say.
"Try to be civil to your fellow blog readers"
Belly,
How about you stop calling other people stupid. You are offensive and it's uncalled for.