Consumer Reports: Most Reliable Used Cars for 2009

Civic Consumer Reports released its 2009 Annual Auto Issue, which includes used-car reliability scores. The model data identifies the reliability of used cars from 1999 to 2008. The data comes from Consumer Reports subscribers, who report on the problems they have with their new vehicles over time.

A few notable points include the increased reliability of European vehicles, which now match newer domestic models. Also, five-year-old-vehicle reliability scores from Ford, Hyundai and Nissan are virtually tied.

Both facts help validate what many car shoppers are hearing in Ford and Hyundai commercials: That their reliability is better than ever.

While reliability has improved industry-wide, Toyota and Honda continue to dominate Consumer Reports’ “Best of the Best” used-car list.

Below are some CR top picks for used cars (1998-2008):

  • Small Cars: Honda Civic, Toyota Echo, Scion xB, Toyota Corolla, Toyota Matrix, Pontiac Vibe, Mazda3, Mazda Protégé, Subaru Impreza
  • Family Cars: Honda Accord, Toyota Prius, Ford Fusion, Mercury Milan, Toyota Camry (except '08 V-6), Subaru Outback (six-cyl.), Nissan Altima
  • Minivans: Toyota Sienna, Honda Odyssey
  • Small SUVs: Toyota RAV4, Honda CR-V, Subaru Forester, Mitsubishi Outlander
  • Midsize and large SUVs: Honda Pilot, Toyota Highlander, Lexus RX, Toyota Land Cruiser, Toyota 4Runner, Infiniti FX35, Acura MDX, Infiniti QX4, Lexus GX, Hyundai Santa Fe, Subaru Tribeca, Nissan Xterra ('05-'08), Toyota Sequoia 

How used cars are holding up (Consumer Reports)

By Colin Bird | February 26, 2009 | Comments (73)
Tags: Car Buying

Comments 

H

17% of 2001 Acura CL transaxles had to be rebuilt? Either the CL tranny is truly prone to fail or we are seeing an example of how CR's survey methods can skew results. And does a failed transmission merely count as 1 problem?

Karl

I had an Acura TL whose transmission started to slip at 58,000 miles. Although I bought the car used and it was out of warranty the dealer replaced it for free. The dealer said they experienced a higher than normal failure rate and that it was unacceptable. The dealer even provided me with a free loaner. The difference in quality and dealer service between the Japanese and the so-called "American 3" is like night and day. Outside of the trans issue I have no other problems and the car now has 171,000 miles.

I'm surprised that joke "TrueDelta" is still around. It's run by a father and son and is the best way to waste $24.95. They post on every single car site as they are so desparate to drive traffic back to their own site. You'll find out that they have a lot of nothing to offer on real world information when compared to the professionals, JD Power and Consumer Reports.

Hybrit

Prius is number one in reliability.

Mike Rosa

My family has owned 11 Toyota's and 2 Honda's over the years. All of them have been bullet-proof reliable - especially the Toyota's. We've had a Prius for three years and 41,000 miles with zero problems. I don't know why any one would buy 'American' when you can buy better quality.

Incredulous

Because people buy what they want Mike Rosa.

And Karl please let me know this wonderful dream dealership that gives away thousands of dollars in free transmissions.

This is truly a very helpful survey to all of us. Especially with families looking to buy used cars at least through this info, they would be aware of what brand to buy.

The 2010 Toyota Prius can actually achieve zero to sixty faster than a 2010 Ford Mustang GT!

But, only if the damn thing's hooked-up to a 2010 Dodge Viper...

By the way, if you'd like to purchase a brand new Prius, Mustang GT, or Viper, don't worry about having the cash. Your neo-Markist dictator, Barack Hussein Obama, will buy you one right after he finishes paying off your five-bedroom, three-bathroom, 3,500 sq.ft. house mortgage!

Original sheth

"The difference in quality and dealer service between the Japanese and the so-called "American 3" is like night and day. Outside of the trans issue I have no other problems and the car now has 171,000 miles."

Sounds like a fantasy to me. Edmunds had a long term honda pilot and Honda forgot to tell them about a recall and they SUV broke down in the desert. All manufacturers have some outstanding dealers. I used to have an Olds Alero and it had quite a few warranty repairs. I never had any issue with the dealer making repairs. No run around, no passing the buck- they just corrected the issue and gave the car back.

Original sheth

DL:

Do you know the sample size for each vehicle in CR? I surely dont. I can guarantee you CR's readership base overwhelming owns imports. How do you know the sample sizes for the domestic models they claim are unreliable are sizable? I'm sure they get thousands of surveys for the Camry and Accord but a fraction of that number for the Malibu or Fusion. CR does not tell you how many responses they get for each vehicle.

"I don't know why any one would buy 'American' when you can buy better quality."

All cars can last 150k miles or more without major mechanical problems if maintained. Here's where your thinking is flawed. You presume that because you havent had problems with your Toyotas that anyone who doesnt have a Toyota has to be experiecing problems. That is not the case. There are plenty of anecdotal stories from people who have owned nothing but domestics and have had few, if any problems. That really doesnt prove anything. Furthermore, its kind of hard to believe that ANY vehicle can last many years and well over 100k miles and not need SOME major repairs or replacments. Once you hit a certain level of mileage wear and tear is inevitable- even on a Toyota.

Tony

Karl busters,

you're wrong. Karl is right!
Actually, Karl is wrong too. The dealers replaced the transmission because Honda elevated the warranty to the TRANSMISSION up to 109K miles when they realized that their trannys had problems and it would be disaster to their reputation if they didn't do anything.

So, most Hondas, Acuras from 1999 to 2005 had these issues and had more warranty added to satisfy customers. They had problems even with their manual trannys and had to repair them for free.

so... yes. CR definitely not taking into account this issue. It is 1 issue but BIG one. Will cost you more then $3000 to replace tranny on the Honda. I wish they would add a measure to the reliability - the cost factor. I had a Nissan with 5-6 $20-150 problems. But I would take that over one issue with $3K.

Belly

Shet, you said it right "Do you know the sample size for each vehicle in CR? I surely dont."

You don't know. So how can you argue? What base do you have for suggesting CR's readers own more Honda's and Toyota's? How can you "guarantee" it?

PS I owned a Honda which didn't require any major repairs - not even the timing belt - which had 250K on it, and it is still going, and has not required any major repairs.

There are plenty of anecdotal stories from people who have owned nothing but domestics and have had few, if any problems. That really doesnt prove anything

All you have are stories to suggest that domestic makes are as reliable, and you don't even particular instances.

Tony

"All cars can last 150k miles or more without major mechanical problems if maintained."

Original sheth

you're stretching the truth there. First of all the recent improvements of Ford that you constantly mentioning are not true for all models and are good for last 3 years only.

You know, Ford had few good models before. For example, Excort. Some of them were really Proteges - they were good.

Still, we don't have enough data. I went to AutoTrader and looked into highest mileage Fusion. There are 10 with over 100K mi in the hole country with highest at 122K.
Then I picked Accords from 2000 and up - there are hundreds with over 150K mi.
Then I looked into 2005-2006 Accord and found 107 of them with 100-147K mi

You go to GM cars and you will find out such problems you don't want to know. How do you feel for broken crank shaft for a car which just passed the warranty limit?

H

You are delusional if you think a broken crankshaft is a typical problem. Just stick to complaining about the tire options on the Venza.

I wish everyone would stop acting like they know everything there is to know. Do you all work on cars regularly? Do you even know how to change the oil? All these reliability ratings and survey are statistics and numbers and so treat it as such. Don't tell us how your car has never needed anything other than oil changes going on 10 years now because every other person could tell that story regardless of what brand car they drive. Don't tell us that car "x" is not reliable because a survey said it has "x" number of problems per 100 vehicles.

Tony

Yes, H. A broken crank shaft - this is what happened to two of my relatives. One on 85K Chevy Astro minivan and another on Pontiac. I forgot the name of it. A sports car with Corvette engine. 38K miles. Just 2K over the warranty.

If you're interested in my qualifications as a mechanic... well... I've converted cars into parts down to piston rings... honestly, do I care what you've said? I have a LARGE family with so many different cars. And they all consult with me what to do when there is a car issue. and I tell you. Generally speaking, Toyota is way above all in relaiability. And American Makes when cars are of their engineering, are not doing well in comparo. May be not too bad if you compare to chinese, Russian cars, but to Japanese... Sorry. You can keep changing oil now.

Original sheth

Tony:

Apply some common sense here. The fusion came out in 2005 and thus you are not going to find many on the road with 150k miles. The 2000 Accord is 9-10 years old so naturally you will examples out there with tons of mileage.

How am I stretching the truth? Its a shame that you dont bother to look at the details of CR's information. VEry few cars have mechanical problems based on CR's breakdown of problems by category. Most major automakers have beefed up their powetrain warranties in recent years because they know the powertrains are very durable. You dont even have to tune up many engines (GM was the first to do this) until 100k miles which should give you a clue as to how long a modern engine can last.

German cars have historically done poorly in CR surveys and yet they (esp. MB products) have a reputation for being able to last well over 100k miles. Why is that? Its because CR surveys cover a LOT more than mechanical reliability.

Original sheth

"Generally speaking, Toyota is way above all in relaiability. And American Makes when cars are of their engineering, are not doing well in comparo. May be not too bad if you compare to chinese, Russian cars, but to Japanese... Sorry. You can keep changing oil now."

Generally speaking, you are full of it. GM and Chrysler offer better powertrain warranties than Toyota. Why would they do that if their engines are lower quality? JD Powers tracks problems per hundred vehicles for each brand and problems (in initial and 3 year quality) have steadily decreased over the years. CR has noted the same thing. All brands have improved over the years but some have improved more than others.

I also find it interesting that people seem to think problems with imports (like tranny failures) are OK just because the manufacturer treats it as a warranty problem. Wouldnt it be better not to have the tranny crap out with well under 100k miles?

Original sheth

"ou go to GM cars and you will find out such problems you don't want to know. How do you feel for broken crank shaft for a car which just passed the warranty limit?"

When you consider Gm's powertrain warranty is good for up to 100k miles I would have to say GM must be pretty confident in their engine quality. I have NEVER heard of a GM car with a broken crankshaft.

Belly

Apply some common sense here. The fusion came out in 2005 and thus you are not going to find many on the road with 150k miles. The 2000 Accord is 9-10 years old so naturally you will examples out there with tons of mileage.

Shet, Tony also added this statement:
Then I looked into 2005-2006 Accord and found 107 of them with 100-147K mi

So why didn't you reply to that?

Original sheth

"Then I looked into 2005-2006 Accord and found 107 of them with 100-147K mi

So why didn't you reply to that?"

Belly,

I would hope you arent suggesting that the fact that he couldnt find a Fusion with more than 112k miles means that it wont last longer. That would be some seriously faulty logic. All his "research" proves is that 2006 Accord owners on autotrader drive more than 2006 Fusion owners. Any car can last 147k miles if you want to keep it that long. Most people dont so I fail to see why domestic haters are so quick to say "My Honda is still going after 180k miles!! Try that in your crappy Chevy!". I dont really care. I dont want to keep ANY car for that long and considering I drive about 10k miles a year its unlikely I will ever have a car long enough to get close to that kind of mileage.

Also, total numbers of used cars for sale means nothing. The accord outsells the Fusion by a heft margin and the fusion wasnt even on sale for the 2004 or 2005 model years so common sense dictates that there are far more used Accords on the market relative to Fusions. The real question might be: why are so many people trying to sell their reliable accords? Maybe Fusion owners are OK with their cars.

Vik

Belly- nobody here has pasted sample sizes from CR vs. TD so neither you, nor anyone else, can argue about sample size. However, your logic seems to be that because CR is popular and you have no data about sampling and you seemingly know nothing about the questions they ask and heir rating process, it must be true. Your logic seems faulty.

Also- basing your reliability claims on the number of cars you see on autotrader is ridiculous. So not as many 2005-2007 Fords with high mileage are on autotrader- what do you think happened to them? Do you think people throw away 2-4 year old cars in some kind of new car scrap heap? I'd be asking why so many more Accord owners are selling their reliable cars vs. Ford owners. You also don't even consider the number of each model sold- I believe Accords are far more opular, so it makes sense there are more high mileage cars on the used car market. I don't know why I'm even bothering to respond here, your post is so full of holes, so I'll stop now.

Belly

H, Vik, Shet, whatever you want to call yourself, you are a complete and utter joke.

Any car can last 147k miles if you want to keep it that long. Most people dont so I fail to see why domestic haters are so quick to say "My Honda is still going after 180k miles!! Try that in your crappy Chevy!". I dont really care. I dont want to keep ANY car for that long and considering I drive about 10k miles a year its unlikely I will ever have a car long enough to get close to that kind of mileage.

If that is the case then why do you even write about it? You don't know from personal experience, or from your "friends".

Do you think people throw away 2-4 year old cars in some kind of new car scrap heap?

Uhm, are you crazy? What sense does this make?

I'd be asking why so many more Accord owners are selling their reliable cars vs. Ford owners.

Because they are actually worth something, and because they can't afford the payments. Those are reasons.

You also don't even consider the number of each model sold- I believe Accords are far more opular, so it makes sense there are more high mileage cars on the used car market.

And why do you think they are more popular? Good products sell more.

Shet, by just changing the tag it does not change the fact, yes the fact, that you are a nincompoop.

DL

Original sheth,

i said, "most intelligent people probably look at several sources since each source has its pros and cons."

where have i said anything about CR's sample size, one way or the other??? does the above line imply to you that i am partial to CR? truedelta still sux because nobody has yet to tell me how it's worthwhile with its tiny sample size; that in no way endorses CR, mind you! sure, the millions of readers could be all frumpy Camry drivers. whatever!

i think it's important to base car-buying decisions on multiple sources, including reliability data. that's all i'm trying to say. CR can be one of yours, or JD Power or whatever. calm down

Charles

I had a transmission blow-out in my Acura TL and the dealer replaced it for free. I was the third owner and the vehicle was 22,000 miles out of warranty. I ended-up having the vehicle towed to the Acura dealer because a local transmission shop kept giving me conflicting advice on a full repair vs. a partial repair. I was pleasantly surprised when the dealer informed me Acura Corporate was going to pick-up the complete bill. The dealer was Open Road Acura in New Jersey.

Let's face it if you are not man enough to admit that the Japanese build better cars (Acura, Toyota, Honda) and offer much better dealer service (Acura, Lexus) then nothing will convince you because you are ignorant. Sure GM and Ford and Chrysler all build great cars and their dealers offer great service. That's why they are begging for bail-out money. LOL!

H

Better cars = transmissions which are prone to fail? Ignorance is bliss isn't it Charles.

Tony

Original sheth,

I don't know your way of thinking but you're missing my point completely.

My point is that YOU said that American Cars last 150K TROUBLELESS miles while you have no prove of that. Because in the best exemple you always use - the Fusion (CR, JDP)- they don't have them that old yet.

Also. The age of the car matters as much as mileage. If you ever learned the material science, you would know that during heating and cooling phase car gets damaged as well as worn from driving. The seasonal changes also kill it.

So, when you will show me a huge number of Fusions in good shape and farly troubleless, which are 10yo with 150K miles or more, ONLY THEN I will say, "Yes, Ford knows how to make the car".

Of corse, the number of Accords there can be attributed to the simple fact that they sell 5 times more of them but still, we know, they run around for 15-20 years. But do we know same about the Fusion? - NO.


=====================================
Just because you don't see something, it doesn't mean that this something doesn't exist.

Troy S.

Knock on wood.... I've never been stranded on the side of the road by a Honda product in the last 19 years.

The O-riginal Sheth

Sorry guys, I know I am difficult to deal with, but really what is wrong with the Cobalt? It looks just like every other car out there, it has 4 wheels and a few doors, what could be wrong with it? What does Consumer Reports know? 13,234 people who have had a bad experience with a car doesn't mean it is a bad car. I mean really Consumer Reports is just all about hating on Americans, we should go get um! Who's with me...

Bradley

I've owned Chevy's and Acura's and can tell you first hand there is NO comparison. Chevy's can't even compare to Hyundais.

I really feel sorry for the poor fools who can only afford the Detroit 3. You should have listened to your mother and got an education.

Vik

Belly- you've proven nothing but the fact that you cannot form logical arguments, especially with your ridiculous autotrader comment and your blind-faith following of CR without answering why you trust the questions they ask and their sample size- DID YOU EVEN LOOK AT THE TRUE DELTA ANALYSIS OF CR'S TECHNIQUES? Are you telling me the most popular vehicle in each category is ALWAYS the best / most reliable? I guess price doesn't factor in on this, nor a reputation that may or may not be deserved. I guess everyone is selling off their reliable Hondas because they are such great cars and they need the money, but Fords suck so bad that people just hold onto them and don't even try to sell them. Makes sense. I think I'm going to stop wasting me time on you. I've had more friends with the infamous Honda tranny problem than I can count, and a family member has had to deal with multiple recalls on his 05 Accord and 07 Civic. I'm not impressed. Honda isn't the reliable car company they were in the late 80s, but the great thing is they can ride on their reputation because intelligent people like yourself still believe it. Keep drinking your Kool-Aid and I'll keep laughing at you.

Belly

Sure Shet, oops I mean Vik. You keep doing whatever you can to make people believe that GM has cars that hold up like a Honda or Toyota.

sheth

Vik is his own person. Sorry to disappoint you belly.

DL:

I didnt address your points so I dont know why you are telling me to calm down. I barely paid attention to what you wrote.

"Let's face it if you are not man enough to admit that the Japanese build better cars (Acura, Toyota, Honda) and offer much better dealer service (Acura, Lexus) then nothing will convince you because you are ignorant. Sure GM and Ford and Chrysler all build great cars and their dealers offer great service. That's why they are begging for bail-out money. LOL!"


JD Power just released rankings for dealer satisfaction. American brands did pretty well. Cadillac was 3rd I believe. The lowest brands overall were imports. Nissan and Mazda where near the bottom and Toyota was not amongst the leaders. Get your facts straight. I am man enough to actually have some regard for the facts. How about you?

Tony:

your point still doesnt hold water. You say the Fusion isnt a quality car based on your arbitrary definition. You and I both know the fusion came out in 2005 so to say its unproven because there are no 10 year old models on the road is just silly. Also, YOU are the one who said the Fusion is the first example of a reliable domestic car, not me. There are millions of domestic cars on the road will well over 100k miles. Look around, you may actually see some. I dont know where you live but in my area its very common to see GM products from the 90s on the road. Oldmobiles, Buicks, Chevys and Pontiacs from the 90s and early 2000s are easy to spot around these parts.

As for "proof" you dont have any that all Hondas last for 150k miles with no issues. Reliability surveys dont track vehicles that are 10 years old so all we have is anecdotal evidence. I dont trust the word of anyone who is clearly biased because people view their favorite cars with rose colored glasses. A Honda fan is always going to say they had "zero" problems over 150k miles. My other point is that wear and tear issues are UNAVOIDABLE if you plan to keep a car for 10 years. Anyone who suggests they kept a car for that long and never had to come out of pocket for a major replacement or repair is not being honest. Last time I checked even imports need new tires, brakes, timing belt changes, AC compressor replacements, alternator replacements, etc. if they are kept long enough. The dirty little secret that people dont want to talk about are repair and parts costs. Imports cost more to maintain and parts cost more to replace. Also, most imports have timing belts that need to be replaced. The domestics were the first to widely use timing chains that never needed replacement. The domestics were the first to widely implement the 100k tune up as well.

Modern cars don't "die" easily so your suggestions that any Fusion with over 100k miles is liable to go kaput just because the car doesnt have a history of going well over 150k miles is just silly. The only reason there arent a lot of Fusions around with 150k miles is due to the fact that the car has only been out for 4.5 years.

sheth

"Sure Shet, oops I mean Vik. You keep doing whatever you can to make people believe that GM has cars that hold up like a Honda or Toyota."

belly:

I challenge you to produce one credible source that proves that Toyota last longer than GM products. Just one source. Stop attacking and start providing some basis for your outrageous statements. I have yet to figure out why you have a GM product if you sincerely believe that they make nothing but unreliable crap.

sheth

"Sorry guys, I know I am difficult to deal with, but really what is wrong with the Cobalt? It looks just like every other car out there, it has 4 wheels and a few doors, what could be wrong with it? What does Consumer Reports know? 13,234 people who have had a bad experience with a car doesn't mean it is a bad car. I mean really Consumer Reports is just all about hating on Americans, we should go get um! Who's with me..."

Instead of pretending to be me why dont you try to explain CR's faulty methods for gathering data. When you dont know much you have to resort to immature attacks and poor imitations of others. So sad. You can mock me and try to get laughs all day but in the end CR's methods are still lame.

Tony

Sheth

without counting in the maintanence (tires, bakes, etc)
my 1990 Civic had first issue when it was 6yo and over 120K
My 1998 Protege had first issue 7 years old and 102K.
My 2000 Villager had first issue 4 years and 60K and by 100K it had 5 issues.
My 1994 Corolla had first issue 9 years and 130K
my 1987 LeBaron was 5yo with 50K miles. It had so many issues in 2 years that i had to sell it after driving 25K.

Now, about that 100K maintanence. I wouldn't recommend. Seriously. Change spark plugs not later then 60K miles or you risking to leave one in the engine head.

Yes, I said that Fusion is reliable for now. But long term relaiability is no know. But we know about Hondas and Toyotas long lasting properties.

As far as parts, you are wrong. Sinse practicly all parts are coming from aftermarket the only cost factor is complexity of the part and number of them maid. So you will always find cheap maintanence parts(brakes, filters) for a popular car model and expensive parts will belong to more rare models. Don't let part prices fool you. If I had a car(Villager) on which the probleatic part was an engine mount and they replaced this part on every car of this model every 2-3 years, this engine mount was $36. Since engine mount on some other car never breaks it cost more to produce each.
this is exactly why it is more expensive to fix issues on reliable cars, which happene to be in the las 20 years the Japanese.

Tony

Sorry. I meaN "made" , not maid - i wish...

Karl C.

I feel bad for anyone who has to drive a General Motors or Chrysler vehicle. Everyone knows if you can't afford quality like Toyota then you buy based on price and learn to live with GM and Chrysler.

Karl C

PS Instead of buying lunch yesterday I bought a couple of shares of GM - LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Belly

Shet here you are:

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/01/29/j-d-power-releases-long-term-vehicle-dependability-study/

That is for 2006

http://www.autoblog.com/photos/j-d-power-2007-vehicle-dependability-study/346679/

That is for 2007

http://image.motortrend.com/f/miscellaneous/still-got-it-lexus-tops-jd-power-dependability-study-for-14th-year/10588536+cr1+re0+ar1/jd-power-vehicle-dependability-results.jpg

That is for 2008

You want more, or is that enough? Yes Buick and Cadillac are ahead on the survey, but who sells more, Buick and Cadillac combined, or Honda, or Toyota? Hah! You know the answer. How many more sources do you want? Can I show you the repair history on all the Honda's I have owned compared to Ford and GM vehicle's or what else do you want? What proves it for you?

Belly

Stupid Shet,

Outrageous, yeah you are an ass. Every bit of data gathered in the last 10 years points against your opinion but you try and tell everyone that Consumer Reports has a giant conspiracy against US automakers even though you can't explain why. JD powers ranking come out the same way. You love to say that is okay that US automakers send jobs out of the country since everyone else does it. You love the idea that hp itself on paper is the determining factor in a comparison. Go on keep pushing the pile that you are, no believes it. I will prove you wrong at every turn. Just keep trying.

Belly

You and I both know the fusion came out in 2005 so to say its unproven because there are no 10 year old models on the road is just silly.

This is not silly at all.

A Honda fan is always going to say they had "zero" problems over 150k miles. My other point is that wear and tear issues are UNAVOIDABLE if you plan to keep a car for 10 years. Anyone who suggests they kept a car for that long and never had to come out of pocket for a major replacement or repair is not being honest.

No, you just have never owned a Honda product then. That is all that proves.

Last time I checked even imports need new tires, brakes, timing belt changes, AC compressor replacements, alternator replacements, etc. if they are kept long enough.

Nobody is complaining about all this stuff with domestics. AC compressors, yeah that is a constant point that domestics can't seem to get right. Timing chains or belts no, the transmission goes long before that.

Belly

There are millions of domestic cars on the road will well over 100k miles. Look around, you may actually see some. I dont know where you live but in my area its very common to see GM products from the 90s on the road. Oldmobiles, Buicks, Chevys and Pontiacs from the 90s and early 2000s are easy to spot around these parts.

That may be true, but spending 3 to five times to keep that car running is not a good idea. Many people do it just because they don't know what else is out there and they already have their bias that a domestic is better (like you) but are unwilling to see any different. Don't settle for garbage, don't buy a Cobalt, demand more from the US automakers. They can do it, but only if you ask for it.

Belly

Cadillac was 3rd I believe. The lowest brands overall were imports. Nissan and Mazda where near the bottom and Toyota was not amongst the leaders.

Toyota was ranked 4th by makes, and Honda was ranked 9. Pretty good for companies that actually sell the top selling vehicles in the US. And Lexus came in number one. Nissan and Mazda were ahead of both Dodge and Chevy. Hyundai beat out Ford, Chevy, and Dodge, the best selling domestic makes.

Belly

The lowest brand in JD powers study - Land Rover. It was owned by Ford for a good portion of 2008.

Belly

How much more proof do you want Shet?

Vik

Belly said "Toyota was ranked 4th by makes, and Honda was ranked 9. Pretty good for companies that actually sell the top selling vehicles in the US."

Again, in your eyes, top selling must mean "best quality", not best price, best incentives, best reputation (deserved or not), etc. "Pretty good" isn't good enough for me, Belly. #4 and #9?? In this day and age, I'd buy a Buick instead of that Honda or Toyota, and I own a Toyota Landcruiser and a Mercedes 240D. I own these cars because they were made when quality was the most important thing. Not anymore...

Have you seen the new Camry? Quality and workmanship is slipping bigtime at Toyota, Good thing they have koolaid drinkers like yourself clinging to reliability that applied 5-10 years ago and not today.

I think it's funny how you dismiss American automakers making it into the upper ranks of quality studies. I wonder if you'll shut up when the number grows from 3-4 to 7-8 makes? I'm gonna guess you'll start claiming CR was paid off by American automakers then. Enough with your drivel, I'm done.

ziggy

Belly -
I know several folks taht own domestics and swear by them. They think that getting repairs done 3-4 times a year is "normal" and when I tell them that my Toyota has 150k miles and never had a repair they think I'm lying. If a domestic is all they've ever owned then this is their "reality". It's the same world Shet lives in.

sheth

ziggy,

I live in the real world. No one with ANY brand of car is getting 3-4 repairs done in one year. That is just absurd. dont insult people's intelligence by suggestion that anyone who doesn't drive a Toyota doesnt understand quality. Its amazing that few of the people I know with Toyotas (including a 2002 camry and a 2000 camry that has been traded in after it needed a repair) have been able to get their cars to 150k miles with no repairs. When people are totally convinced of the quality of a product nothing is going to change their opinion. People like you and Belly are detached from the real world and refuse to acknowledge the quality issues that have popped up with the brands you worship. Why did CR (which Belly swears by) stop automatically recommending Toyotas if Toyotas never have problems? I would love an answer. Also, why doesnt Toyota rank #1 or #2 in the JD Power surveys?

H

If you are so happy with your Toyota's and Honda's then more power to you but enough already. Why do you continue trying to "prove" that domestic makes are "unreliable"? Does it make you feel that much better about driving your Toyota or Honda?

DRRT

H,

That's the point. So many people want to prove that their choice (decision) is a smart one.

It would be interesting if an automobile media (e.g., cars.com) publish an article regarding pros/cons and the real impacts of purchasing foreign "brand" (regardless of where their products are produced) Vs domestic brand.

I was told in my class that the main reason why a company would relocate its plants to other countries is to take some advantages (e.g., regulations, tax reliefs, logistics), really not for the well-being of people in those countries (Lawrence Summers). This is the same logic when American company builds its plants in the third world countries.

Your decision to buy a foreign product may be good for yourself or even your state, but not for the USA as a whole. As an American, you can be happy for your foreign product, but you should not be "proud" of it. And, this is based on the assumption that foreign cars really outclass domestic cars. Based on my experience, they are really not that much different. At least, you should be happy when American products show some sign of improvement. If most Japanese or Korean think the same way many American think today, Toyota or Hyundai would not be survived in the past.

sheth

"Outrageous, yeah you are an ass. Every bit of data gathered in the last 10 years points against your opinion but you try and tell everyone that Consumer Reports has a giant conspiracy against US automakers even though you can't explain why. JD powers ranking come out the same way."

You really must be slower than I first imagined. Did you look at the JD Power rankings? Cadillac was near the top. In CR Cadillac is one of the LEAST reliable brands. Honda was #9 but in CR Honda is the most reliable brand sold in America. Buick was #2 but in CR Buicks are just average and rank below all the Asian nameplates. The results are not consistent at all and by giving those links you merely proved my point. Thanks.

sheth

H,

I have asked myself the same question many times. People that swear by Toyotas cannot bring themselves to admit there are other worthy options on the market. We can all agree that Toyota makes reliable vehicles (in general, there are exceptions) but we do not agree on this notion that because Toyota makes reliable vehicles anything made by an American company is unreliable by default. In this business the competition always catches up to you. Toyota used to have significant advantages when it came to production efficiency and quality control but those advantages are largely gone. GM and others have adopted and modified Toyota's production methods and quality control processes. This idea that the Japanese are the only ones smart enough to master quality is nonsense. 15 years ago these same people would have told us that Hyundai would never be able to rival Toyota/Honda in quality and engineering but look at Hyundai now. No one is making such claims these days. Hyundai studied the competition and adopted the methods of the companies they wanted to match. Now Hyundai's build quality and overall quality is second to none. I also give Hyundai credit for backing their tough talk with a great warranty. Toyota and Honda make a lot of quality claims but their skimpy warranties don't seem to support the idea that their quality is the best in the business.

Belly

Yes, Stupid Shet you have totally debunked CR as a reliable source of auto information because they don't rank Buick or Cadillac exactly as high as JD Powers. Oh but wait, As I see CR's latest ratings they actually pick the DTS, many past model years of the STS and CTS as average, meaning decently reliable. They also rate almost all Buicks that are still being made as above average in reliability for the past few years. I think the thing you are confused about (among many, many things) is that CR recommends new vehicles and publishes predicted reliability for old vehicles. Those are two substantially different things. Read up buttercup!

And seriously we all know you are H, so quit talking to yourself!

PRIUS-IS-SLOW

i stopped reading this blog at
"a 1010 prius is faster than a mustang GT"

WOW... u r SOOOO far off it's unbelievable. i work for toyota and trust me... you'll be lucky to do less than 10 secs 0-60. MAYBE. last i checked... even a 4 cyl 1980 mustang beats that. people don't buy a prius for speed... thank goodness or we'd NEVER sell one!

my only hope is you mistook the info about the hybrid supra we're coming up with that should be able to pull sub 4 sec 0-60's.

don't post if you don't know what you're talking about about... please...

James

I have to agree with Sheth. In the UK the japanese cars were incredibly reliable and you see them on the roads for years, but the new models are not much better than the competition. We use to give fords the nickname Fix Or Repair Daily but these days they seem as reliable as any other car on the road. In the end it comes down to how much servicing you are prepared to do. I drive Audis. I have got them all to 200k miles and yet they are considered very unreliable.

jj

I just traded in my 1996 Toyota Rav4 with 175,000 miles on it. Never had a major problem, and no I'm not lying. Just routine maintenance - oh, wait, a hose came off once. I'll let you guess whether I traded it for an American or a Japanese car.

F

I have a 2002 honda accord lx with 191,000 miles, never had a problem. I follow the manual for maintenance. I also owned a Pontiac grand am for which I also followed the manual and I replaced prior to 60,000 miles !! : alternator, pump and complete drivetrain, needless to say I got rid of it as soon as I could then bought a Toyota Tacoma new, never had any problem with that either. I paid deerly to learn this lesson and never again will I make that same mistake!

vivi

CR is very biased. Think about all the Toyota people we know how insane they are about their vehicles being reliable. Many who have had problems wont tell their best friends much less disclose it to a magazine. An american who owns an american car is in many cases less likely to hide issues. Biased sampling. Dont waste your money!

vivi

By the way to all you Honda and Toyota people I have owned both american and japanese vehicles and without exception the american vehicles were more reliable and more fun to drive. I have owned 6 trucks 4 dodge rams, 1 mazda b2200, and a 2008 toyota tundra. The dodge rams were exemplary. The mazda blew its engine and the toyota was the biggest piece of god awful engineering i have ever witnessed. Bodycreaking, rusting, slipping transmission and no personality. Needless to say i am on dodge ram #5.

Ziggy

lmao...
I want some of what vivi is smoking... ^^
he is out in left field without a mitt.
He thinks Dodge is an American car company...so sad.

rick stafford

As a professional used car buyer for major dealerships, i have over the years purchased ONE AT A TIME somewhere between 15 and 20 THOUSAND cars, trucks and vans...when i started in this business in 1979 Toyota was just getting a foothold in this country but were already establishing a reputation for reliability while the domestics were COMPLETE junk...the typical domestic was completely worn out at 100,000 miles if it lasted that long...the difference in quality is night and day...today the typical car will last 2 or even 3 times as long as those of just 30 years ago...they are safer, last longer and yes Martha, they are cheaper ( in relation to average wages )...the quality gap between japenese and domestic cars is small..if it exists at all. In short i think there are those that will NEVER buy domestic because they will never believe that America can do ANYTHING correctly. It,s almost cool for people in this mindset to put down America...sad...truly sad.

Lainer

I have a 2002 Outback Sport. I have 117k on it. I've had many problems with it. I've replaced the brain, numerous sensors, a timing belt, fuel lines. (Apparently the Subaru fuel lines are notorious for leaking in extremely cold weather. Now I'm told the seals are going near the anti-freeze unti. (Or whatever it's called). I've had bushings and brakes go also. Oh, and the clutch. (The clutch on my Toyota truck lasted over 80k). Anyway, anyone else have issues with Subarus" What is the most reliable vehicle?

Dave

The domestic car companies foolishly took the bait-out money as the result of decades of insatiable union demands and the endless government regulations that drove them to the brink of collapse. (The Chrysler Corp should have been left to die back in '79;chryslerplymouthdodgemitsubishijeepdaimlerfiathsbc...etc, whatever, hasn't built a decent vehicle in over 35 years)

Like most Americans over 40, I was a GM vehicle owner for most of my life.
But now that GM stands for "gov'mint motors"...
I've decided to become a Ford Motor Company Man.

Riq

I like Japanese cars, but that being said, I'm a like to buy the best quality for the most affordable price..

I look at the studies, including CR, and other reports about reliability, but I know to only use them as a barometer.

I also put my ear to the street to see what people have experienced.

And over the years, having owned many used cars, the one thing I've noticed is that Toyotas and Honda tend to last, and many American made cars don't.

I don't have any hard evidence, but based on the average person( that doesn't take the best care of their cars), I've found that Toyota and Honda tend to last.

But another thing is that I've learned to buy cars by the model, not by the company, because Ford does have some real stars in their line.

Unfortunately I have relative that have chanced Ford, and had been hit with problems here and there.

Personally, I'd prefer to buy the best model Toyota if I were looking for reliability, and that after years of input from friend, co-workers etc.. I'm based in the south, and I've seen good ole' boys make the switch to Japanese brands based on cost and reliability.

I would never say that the big three don't have some great cars( I'm loving the styling recently), but there that gut feeling and personal experience that skews me toward Toyota and Honda- I don't know many people that have had nightmare scenarios with these brands- but I do know of more than just a few nightmare scenarios with American cars.

And that really resonates in my buying decision.

ron

Toyota has a new reputation,number one in recalls,lawsuites,and laxed in safety!People should not buy their cars right now until those issues are solved.Ford has made the all time most reliable car the model T.They stopped making the model t 80 years ago and 20 thousand are still on the road.

ron

There are some excellant American brand vehicles out there.Ford has the most pickups on the road with over 250,000 miles on them.Chevy Malbu has won North American car of the year,and is in Consumer Digest 2 years in a row.Edmunds consumer ratings show consumers love the newer Malibu.Ford Fusion has higher ratings than Camry and Accord,but because Fusion is from an American based company import buyers are critical of it.Chevy Equinox has the fastest growing sales rate of any SUV IN 2010.JD Powers,Motor Trend magazine,and Edmunds are giving the domestics excellant and impartial ratings.It is a good time to consider buying domestics.

joshua

Lol....I had a 82 Ford F150 that my great grandfather gave me , it had over 300.000 miles on it when I sold it in 2001 I wunder if its still runing some where?? I curently own a 2003 ford explorer with 117,000 miles and a 2004 toyota solara with 70,000 miles...nuthing but oil changes on all.

Brn2praz

Nissan Maxima's vehicles have over 200 postings that I know of including mine who's automatic transmission has slipped and is defected. Nissan will not take ownership of this problem. I have a 2006 Nissan Maxima and at 82,000 miles the transmission has failed. The car isn't even broken in yet. The company is only lending extended warranties for those with a CVT. So, please tell me why there are individuals with a brand new 2010 Nissan Model who's transmission is failing and Nissan will not recall those vehicles.

Robert Gravallese

CR doesnt know cars. What are they basing this on. I have an 09 accord & it is a disaster. Granted previous honda products were great but 08&09 accords are horrible - major engine (valves),transmission, brakes & cooling all prior to 20K. The car looks great when its standing still tho!

Robert Gravallese

Honda no longer stands behind their products either. When the brakes went prematurely they said to enter a lawsuit against the brake manufacturer. On other issues, they pretend the problem doesnt exist. They string you along until you pass lemon law miles and warranty miles. I bought ALL honda products for past 12 years. No more. They are a changed company. I bid change occurred in 2008 & I doubt its corrected now.

Nissan Maxima's vehicles have over 200 postings that I know of including mine who's automatic transmission has slipped and is defected. Nissan will not take ownership of this problem. I have a 2006 Nissan Maxima and at 82,000 miles the transmission has failed. The car isn't even broken in yet. The company is only lending extended warranties for those with a CVT. So, please tell me why there are individuals with a brand new 2010 Nissan Model who's transmission is failing and Nissan will not recall those vehicles.

j

Don't get a subaru. I got an Impreza 02 RS. It has had a variety of problems that have had recalls for other models. Google "2002 subaru head gasket" and "2002 subaru cold weather fuel line".

They had recalls for both of these issues for some vehicles and while mine experienced the leaking head gasket at 75k miles which I had to pay for and it continues to experience the cold weather fuel line issue (it has had this since I bought it), they didn't include my car in the recalls.
My subaru has been very unreliable and paying for the head gasket repair was about $2000.

Don't buy a subaru, they don't extend recalls far enough to save a few bucks while forcing the purchaser to pay for major repairs due to extremely narrow recalls.

I like Japanese cars, but that being said, I'm a like to buy the best quality for the most affordable price.
I look at the studies, including CR, and other reports about reliability, but I know to only use them as a barometer.

buck

1. love this thread - so many opinions and viewpoints, many of which i have heard over the last 50 years. some things have changed and some haven't
2. i still have my first car, 1969 camaro. so simple back then - one wire harness with 5 wires...
3. i have had mid-eighties american cars - all had problems
4. i have had 3 Toyota's (2 Avalons, 1 Tacoma) the Avalon had a recall for "engine sludge" and required $4k repairs, but Toyota paid. the Avalon was designed in Japan, built in Kentucky, and used Korean parts.

So after all that, i can categorically state, without hesitation: there are no bad auto manufacturers. just the occasional combination of bad design, parts and manufacturing.

attila

u don't know nothing about cars .today its no big difference Asian ,European,or American .this ratings are not realistic ....u get what u pay for my wife owns Toyota Avalon 2004 we spent at least 10.000 on this car on last 5 years I have a buick le sabre 2000 with 250.000 mile s I would say $5000 on everything runs great..

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