Are New Diesel Cars DOA?

We here at Cars.com have been covering the alleged entry into the U.S. market of a number of new clean-diesel cars and SUVs for the past few years. 2008 seems like the year that we’ll finally see these more efficient, torque-happy models on sale at local dealers. Some examples include the VW Jetta TDI and BMW 335d.

There’s just one little problem — well, one new little problem: Diesel prices are sky high, currently at a national average — and record high — of $4.21 a gallon compared to an also-record-high $3.55 per gallon for regular gas. That’s almost a 20% premium for diesel. High octane gas isn’t even that expensive, coming in at $3.91 a gallon.

So, will this hurdle hurt the new diesels?

You betcha. The BMW 335d, for example, will get 30% better mileage — 23/33 mpg city/highway — than its gasoline counterpart, the 335i. We highly doubt folks will be turned off by the 335i’s mpg figures, and we also doubt the 335d will be a better performer. 

The Jetta will be more interesting, but not because of diesel prices. The previous-generation Jetta TDI is a favorite of the biodiesel crowd. There are even folks who brew their own fuel from waste like restaurant grease and oil. This essentially renewable fuel can burn in pretty much any diesel engine. Volkswagen has confirmed the new TDIs can burn commercially sold B5 biodiesel fuel without conversion and under warranty but obviously won't support homegrown fuels. We'd guess the hardcore users out there will convert the new Jetta TDI sedan and sportwagen to run on it anyway.

Other future diesel vehicles include the Acura TSX (available in 2009), Audi Q7 TDI (early 2009), BMW X5 xDrive35d (fall 2008), Kia Borrego (2010) and Mercedes-Benz GLK (2008).

Looking at that list, it seems prices could hurt all of them, with one strange exception: The Kia Borrego could be an affordable, large SUV that, again, could run on biodiesel. A capable, clean full-size SUV? Californians will jump for joy. 

Also, even though all these vehicles have been announced for sale in the U.S., guess what? They could very easily be canceled completely. Because each model is made for global consumption and sale in other markets, units slated for the U.S. can just be diverted elsewhere. That’s a sad possibility for diesel aficionados.

Comments

[ed]

Why is the diesel powered SUV now available in the USA being ignored here? Oh, that's right it's a JEEP, manufactured by Chrysler, so it must be bad. Yo Yo.

[Keith]

Manufacturers are marketing and introducing the wrong types of diesel vehicles here in the US. Instead of promoting the efficiency aspect in affordable mainstream cars, they are pushing the performance aspect in high-end luxury vehicles with only a relatively minor gain in efficiency over their gas counterpart hence the Q7 TDI, X5 35d, and all the M-B diesel vehicles. VW's strategy is best as their diesel Jetta will be affordable and the gains in efficiency will offset the higher cost of diesel.

[Jack]

I couldn't imagine owning a gas powered VW let alone a diesel one. If reliability is not a concern then definitely shop VW and Jeep. I've owned two VW's and one Jeep and all I can say is Thank You! Thank You VW and Jeep for turning me onto Honda. I can't imagine two worse car name brands then VW and Jeep.

[Red]

Poor sales have always sunk the diesel car in the U.S. and if the new wave is introduced here they'll fail again. On top of the more expensive fuel, only one in ten U.S. service stations carries diesel fuel, the cars themselves cost thousands more, and employ complex emissions systems. Diesel car owners will fall victim to the shortcomings of diesel fuel - it gels in cold weather unless you add expensive additives, and is naturally unstable and supports the growth of algae, which forms a slime in your fuel tank, which will eventually clog your fuel filter and ruin your injectors. Europe adopted diesel cars because governments there put on tax incentives to encourage diesel use, and they still have only achieved 40 percent market penetration. The engines are super expensive to fix because they operate at higher compression ratios than gasoline engines so they have to be built heavier. Their longevity advantage has been erased by gasoline engines that routinely go 250,000 miles and only need sparkplugs every hundred thousand miles. Unless we can find a reliable source of biodiesel fuel and cars that will use the stuff without voiding the warranty (none do at this point) it makes no sense to be promoting another bunch of diesel cars, which will put a squeeze on diesel fuel supplies, raise diesel prices, and hurt our over the road truckers, while raising the price of everything we consume. I say keep our diesel fuel for the professionals who need it to keep our country supplied with food and the other goods that move by truck, and forgo another round of diesel car hype which will only fade when the reality of owning a diesel car hits home for the average motorist. I know the diesel cars are supposed to be better now, but just look at the record - after several similar claims in the past, diesel cars have always failed in our market.

[Ted Villaruel]

There is something definitely fishy here in the US. I often travel in Europe, specially in France where I have been able to rent a 7 passenger Opel Zafira diesel minvan/wagon(A GM product). With 2 passengers I was able to get over 40 miles per gallon! When I had the car fully loaded with 7 passengers and groceries, travelling from France to Germany I averaged 34 miles per gallon and I drive like usually do here in San diego which is a bit on the agressive side. Why don't we have that vehicle here? It's actually "green" since it uses the new clean burning diesel technology.

[Ted Villaruel]

I drove the opel Zafira in Germany with no special additives. I was on the tank of diesel from France and I experienced no gelling problem in sub zero tempoeratures. Everywhere I went, diesel was the least expensive of the fuels just like it used to be here in the states. I also noticed Jeep Commander diesels, Chrysler Town and Country Diesel, Dodge Nitro diesels, Chrysler 300 diesels over there. Are they just stupid over there, or are we "getting the diesel pulled over our eyes?"

[Tyler]

What's often missing from real world conversations is the pollution problems Europe has from all of the diesels. I was born and lived in Germany until the age of 17 and have naturally traveled all over Europe many times over. While America and it's roads are far from perfect, I find the environment to be much cleaner. I'll take a day in LA any day over a day in certain parts of Italy where one can barely breath.

[Bloke]

Red,

What gasoline car engines go 250,000 routinely? That is not a true statement that the advantages diesels have in that department are erased. And super expensive to fix? What gasoline engine that requires repair has ever cost less than $300 bucks? All this business about the problems associated with diesels, the algae, the gelling, all that, apparently all those other countries that have such a prevalent number of diesels don't have those problems then? Also by your logic, if there are more cars that use diesel it will cause diesel to go up, but diesel cars have always failed here. So why did diesel start costing more than gasoline? It couldn't have been the diesel cars that weren't around right? And do you think if every car company stopped making or importing diesels to the US, diesel prices would go down? You think big oil and gas would do that? Supply and demand maybe, but profit will always drive it more than anything else, maximum profit.

[Juan Carlos]

even diesel might be better in the long run, is not that much better for me. one can only use diesel and can't use regular gas in case of an emergency. and when most gas stations don't have it, that is an issue. also, oil chamges and others things are tend to be more.

[sjones]

My money is on VW and Honda to lauch a successful diesel-powered product here. VW has a large TDI following that will buy, even if the TDI models are pricy (which they will be between the Euro, VW's penchant for loading up models at launch and their ability to cash in on pent up demand).

Honda has the engineering, the marketing muscle and image that would play well to the diesel market. I could see them growing it beyond the hard core diesel buyer.

The Kia Borrego is an interesting point. Let's hope they have the niche mentality to cash in on what they have by doing right (i.e. market/price it smartly, offer a manual, allow for B5 with the factory warranty, offer specs to supplies for the creation of a B100 or SVO conversion kit).

[Mart]

Red,

You will find that Diesel now outsells Petrol engined cars in Europe.

That fact isn't the startling one though. The amazing thing is that back in 1990 (less than 20 yrs ago) only 1 in 10 cars sold in Europe was Diesel.

The advent of refined, powerful and FAST diesel cars caused a total seachange in car buying habits in Europe. BMW kickstarted it with their 525d, and then Peugeot and Citroen were the first mainstream makers to bring the new, much more refined TurboDiesels to market. Since then, people have been awakened to the benefits of Diesel and it has captured the market.

So much so that there is talk of Bentley introducing one, that EVERY major premium maker is selling top-end Diesels too.

If you look at sales figures, the top-selling S-Class mercedes is the S320d, same with BMW 7-series - 735d.

Hopefully, if diesel prices can be regulated a little, it'll have the same impact here.

About the gelling issue in the cold - why don't we ask the people of Norway?:

(from a 2005 PWC report)

"Diesels already account for 70% of new car sales in countries like France and Belgium. The largest annual rises in diesel sales were in Hungary (54%), Norway (45%) and Portugal (31%)."

http://www.pwc.com/extweb/ncpressrelease.nsf/docid/155CA412824A67018025711F00360B54

Sorry for all this typing...

[Red]

Bloke, I respect your viewpoint, but it is true that a diesel car offers no longevity advantage over a gasoline car for the average American driver. I personally own a seven year old Toyota with 156,000 miles that runs like the day we bought it. It doesn't use oil and the oil doesn't even get dirty between changes. There's no doubt it will go 300,000 miles. There are numerous Volvo gasoline cars that have traveled over 1,000,000 miles as documented by Volvo. Gasoline cars have improved much faster than diesel cars over the past 30 years, and there's no way to prove your statement that a diesel car is more durable. If that statement were true, we should be seeing original diesel rabbits from the 80s running all over the place, but the fact is they were a poor car that didn't last. It is a proven fact that maintenance costs for a diesel are higher than for a gasoline car and the higher compression and higher pressure fuel system require more expensive parts. The emission control systems on the new diesels require expensive particulate filters and even urea injection systems that will have to be refilled or the computer won't let the car start. Why pay $2,000 more for a diesel version of the same car to get more maintenance headaches, one tenth the number of stations to fill up, and fuel that costs a dollar more than gasoline? To top it off, buying a diesel car will hurt American over-the-road truckers already paying high prices for diesel fuel because of its limited supply. That really hurts everyone because it raises the cost of our food and everything else they haul. Ted V, and Mart: if the European diesel cars are as good as you say, I will stand corrected when they come to this country and prove themselves. But for anyone who doubts that diesel fuel itself can be a problem, just Google "diesel fuel gelling" and you will see 21,400 entries with all kinds of horror stories. Let's leave diesel fuel to the professionals who keep our country moving. There's really no reason to buy a diesel car in the 21st century with the excellent gasoline hybrids available.

[Bloke]

Red, nothing like a lot of just your own statements to prove a point huh? You have a car, there is no way it will fail huh? Wow, I have a honda that has 250,000 miles, that doesn't mean it won't stop running tomorrow. And the reason you don't see a lot of rabbits around doesn't mean anything. What if the bodies all rusted out or if no one wants to keep them? Stop with the conjecture. Why don't you see truck companies switching to gasoline engines if they are just as reliable?

[Red]

Diesel cars have failed in the US every time they've been introduced, and they've never gotten off the ground after 100 years. Europe had to put huge tax incentives on them to force people into them. Diesel engines are slow torque monsters that do best in over the road trucks where their advantages are best used. That's where diesel should stay- with the professionals. For cars, diesel offers no advantage. That's not conjecture, that's fact, proven by decades of market history in this country.

[Bloke]

Red, the torque is a good thing yes, but a gasoline engine can be made to produce just as much torque or vehicles towing capacity can be increased with proper gearing. Here is a website which comments on the cost of repair of diesel compared to gasoline, according to them diesels are easier and less costly to maintain:

http://news.carjunky.com/alternative_fuel_vehicles/what-are-the-advantages-of-diesel-engines-abc448.shtml

Here is another article which talks about the longer life of diesel engines, while stating some of the drawbacks (Yes I understand there are drawbacks)

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question399.htm

Here is also a couple quotes from the guys from car talk, on the popular mechanics website:

Do you think diesel technology for passenger cars can work its way back into the American heart?
Ray: Since the fuel has been reformulated, diesels—especially diesel hybrids—have a lot of promise. In a vehicle the size of the Prius, you can get efficiency as high as 60 to 70 mpg.

The European turbo-charged, clean-diesel powered Volkswagen Polo gets upwards of 75 mpg.
Ray: Why don’t we have that here? We need to get it. We need to clean up the emissions enough to get it here. The size of the vehicle and powertrain are part of the problem. Americans are conditioned to buy bigger and bigger cars. Compare the Honda Civic of today to one from 30 years ago. It was a toy back then compared to what it is today. In fact, the Civic is actually bigger than the original Accord. Americans have an appetite for big cars cause we’re all too heavy. If we slim down just a bit, we’d be able to fit in all of these small European cars.

Here is the link:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_news/4259624.html

"That's not conjecture, that's fact, proven by decades of market history in this country."

What exactly are you talking about? I could have bought a diesel car in the 80's and I can buy one now if I want. There are more and more gas stations carrying diesel now than ever before. And more and more car companies are making diesels. Also why do you only look at what is happening in this country? Okay England gave tax incentives for diesels a while ago, but why would they be so successful now and are only becoming more so? And please I read your previous post, you don't need to repeat the same information.

[More 44 mpg (in the US) by 2010]

The Saturn Astra is experiencing weak sales.

If the Astra 1.7CDTi 16v 100PS with 15" wheel could be expected to yield about 47 mpg(US) combined cycle and 56 mpg highway, how do you think it would sell here in the US?
http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/vehicleDetails.asp?id=20284

Oh, I forgot to mention that the turbo diesel with particle filter costs less than $1,500 more than its' gasoline cousin in the UK. That "could" put a 47 mpg diesel into the US market for UNDER $21,000!

Sounds like a "Prius Beater" to me! In FACT it sound like it could be "LEADER of the PACK" for quite a while!

[Tom Killick]

I am often in Europe (a couple of months per year)and when I am there I drive a (2.0 litre, not available in the US)diesel Golf, which is better in every respect than any gasolene engined golf. I will not buy a new car in the USA unless it is a diesel, I will simply keep driving my current cars. The main reason why diesels are not sucessful in the US is that they are not been available due to misconcieved "environmental" laws. It is interesting to note that in general cars designed for the European market sell well in the US market, the opposite is patently not true.

The US has grown used to being the dominant economy in the world and , as such, has has been catered to as a seperate market. This is no longer the case.

We also have to get used to the fact that fuel is no longer $1 a gallon. In fact, the US will almost certainly have to accept that incentives are necessary, as the europeans do, to reduce fuel consumption and carbon emmisions.

BTH, Honda makes great diesel engines for the European market.

[UK Diesel Driver]

Red:

Please give me an example of a European country that has used or still uses tax incentives for diesel!!! I know for a fact that in my current country of residence (the UK) this is not the case. Same goes for both my home nation (NL) and my partners (D). In my home nation diesel road tax is a lot higher tan petrol to offset for the losses the treasury makes on reduced fuel tax income.

As far as durability is concerned, have a quick look at the old-school MB diesels you can still see everywhere in Europe. They just keep on going and going and going untill they get shipped over to Africa where they continue to go for another couple of decades (just like the above mentioned Peugeots).

A colleague of mine has a Prius. He gets about the same real world mileage as I do in my bigger, nicer 1.8l turbodiesel Ford Mondeo. And when my car finally gets scrapped it does not have all this chemical waste (BATTERIES ARE SO, SO, SO BAD FOR THE ENVIRONMENT...) inside it that the Prius has.

[TDIJeff]

Red and others, Some of you have no idea what you are speaking about and I am sure are basing your opinions on perceptions that are long outdated. VW has sold every TDI they could import to the US since 1999. The only reasons they didn't import more are a) if they did, it would throw off the balance for their fleet EPA emissions and they would be out of compliance and fined. US EPA rules are written with gas engines in mind. Diesel emissions are different (less of most components, _slightly_ higher NOx, but there are ways to fix that too). And b) VW wouldn't have had enough supply for other markets. I've had my VW TDI since 2001. As long as I have a choice, I'll never go back to a gasser unless the price differential between gas and diesel gets so out of kilter that they are too expensive. But even right now the way things are, I am paying less per mile than I would be for the same car with a gas engine. Oh, and I run on a biodiesel blend during 3 seasons too. Spend a little time in a modern diesel car and you will find they are nothing like the slow dirty Rabbits and Volvos or crappy Caddys and Olds of the late 70s and early 80s. That Mondeo that "UK Diesel Driver" has is a beauty! I will admit that hybrids can have their place too, but nothing says the engines driving the hybrids can't be small diesels. Trains have had diesel-electric locomotives since the late 1930s.

[Red]

UK Diesel Driver,
I don't live in Europe so I defer to your knowledge of diesel tax incentives, which are probably very complicated to begin with. By the way, what is the cost of diesel fuel in the U.K. compared to gasoline? If it's cheaper than gas there must be incentives, because it takes more crude oil to refine a gallon of diesel fuel. The link above in one of my earlier postings is my source on the incentives and refining issue. On the longevity issue, my original comment was that the longevity advantage of diesel in the U.S. has been erased by gasoline cars, which it has. There was a time (1970s and before) when you had to change the plugs and points on gasoline cars every 12,000 miles, and they were ready for a rebuild at 100,000 miles. Diesel looked like a great alternative - no plugs or points and less maintenance and more longevity. But since then gas cars have become controlled by computer, increasing their efficiency and emissions. They routinely last as long as the diesels you describe with a lot less maintenance than before. In the U.S. (which is the subject of this chain) the average driver keeps a car 8 years. There are few gasoline car that won't go 8 years with only routine maintenance like oil changes, and that was the point of my statement. I'm glad diesel is working out for you. You might get nearly the mileage of a Prius but a Prius doesn't clatter along, stinking up the highways and depositing harmful black carbon and fine particulate pollution everywhere it goes (see tyler's entry above). As for the battery issue, the Prius' batteries last the life of the car and batteries are recycled. In a recent poll 94 percent of Americans rejected diesel cars as a viable next purchase. The U.S. is gravitating toward hybrids over diesels. Back when diesel cars had huge advantages over gasoline cars, they still failed in the U.S. Today, when there is no advantage to owning a diesel car, there's no reason to own one. And few people will, because the American public is pretty smart.

[TDIJeff]

Red wrote:
> I'm glad diesel is working out for you. You
> might get nearly the mileage of a Prius but a
> Prius doesn't clatter along, stinking up the
> highways and depositing harmful black carbon
> and fine particulate pollution everywhere it
> goes (see tyler's entry above).

Like I said, outdated perceptions.

[UK Diesel Driver]

Red:

Diesel is about 15 pence a litre dearer than normal unleaded (which in the EU is a minimum 95 octane, if I am not mistaken it is slightly lower in the US?).

Apart from having to wait 3 extra seconds for the engine to pre-warm and the first minute being a bit clattery there is no real difference for drivers between the noise of a diesel and a petrol car.

I also have a particulate filter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_particulate_filter). These are now on most diesel cars being sold and prevent the issues of black clouds and soot you speak about.

In the old days diesels were slow and dirty. They to have computers and turbo's. If you look at any random European car magazine's website you will be able to find a test between similar cars like, for instance, the BMW 530i and 530d with the d coming out as winner despite a higher initial price and higher cost per litre of diesel.

The European car buyer is pretty smart as well. They prefer sophistication over sheer size, that is why a lot more C-class, 3-series and A4 are sold then F150s. And a lot of these vehicles come as a diesel...

TDIJeff:

Bad news for you: VWs money men have supposebly given the thumbs down to the next generation Golf having a diesel hybrid. Apparently there was not enough gain to be had...

The Prius runs on the Atkinson Cycle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle) making it less powerfull but more efficient. The power shortage is mostly felt in a lack of torque when pulling away and this is where the electric engine excells.

Peugeot / Citroen are apparently going to do one but they are not for sale in the US.

[Red]

TDIJeff,
Your Jetta doesn't have a particulate filter, correct? The new emissions laws are much tougher on diesels than when your car was built. Therefore you are spewing black carbon and fine particulate pollution everywhere you go. That's not a perception, that's a fact. And yes, diesel exhaust from a VW of your vintage does stink. All of these "outdated" perceptions are supposed to be eliminated with the new generation diesels - for the small price premium of $1,500 - $2,000 compared to a gasoline version. Meanwhile, the new Prius is being readied that will reportedly deliver 70 mpg average, creating a new perception that diesel cars themselves are the only thing that's outdated. On a day when 400 diesel trucks paraded around the national mall to protest high fuel prices, it's clear that selling more diesel cars is the last thing the truckers and our nation need right now.

[anthony]

I am waiting for 2 Jetta TDIs,a sedan for myself,and a sports wagon for my partner.
Cant wait for them to arrive,they are the most awesome cars.

[Greg Faulkner]

The author is missing something here when he states that the 335d will not outperform the 335i. While it is true that the "d" will not outperform the "i" in a drag race, the drivers of these new, modern diesels will be absolutely blown away by the great low-end torque of these new diesels coming to market and the "d" drivers will see an improvement in overall driving dynamics beyond gas-powered cars. 335d drivers will feel like they are driving the V-8 gasser with the fuel economy of a 4-cylinder gas engine.

The author also misses the truth on the talk about biodiesel. VW has never approved or recommended more than a B5 blend and this has not changed whether one is talking about a 78 VW diesel or a 2009 Jetta TDI. The problem approving biodiesel fuel is not with the engine design but with the lack of an ASTM standard for blends of biodiesel. B100 has an ASTM standard and D2 has a standard but once the fuels are blended, we must have blend standards , because it cannot be determined (once blended) which fuel caused a problem (if there is a problem) if there is no spec. for the blend. So, the problem with biodiesel is an industry problem; not an engine design problem; not a biodiesel problem; and not a diesel fuel problem, but a problem with the ASTM's lack of addressing this overall issue. The author makes it seem as though the new Jetta TDI will be less biodiesel compatible and this is not true.

The 2009 Jetta TDI will run just as good on biodiesel as the previous editions. Grease kits can't be hooked up to any newer model diesel, because the injection pressure is too high for this highly viscous fuel substitute, but biodiesel is not WVO, and biodiesel does not require a grease kit or any other modification. Folks get WVO and biodiesel mixed up but there is a world of difference.

My Jetta TDI gets 44 mpg, according to "drivers' like you" info at www.fueleconomy.gov. The gas-powered Jetta, using the same figures, gets 26 mpg. Using these figures, I still save over $7 to drive 300 miles even with diesel fuel at a $.70 premium over regular gasoline. The 2009 Jetta TDI is supposed to get about 7 more mpg. The gas engine will be the same. Something tells me that diesel drivers can still save money even if diesel fuel does keep this record premium over gasoline, though this is highly unlikely.

[Greg Faulkner]

The 2006 Jetta TDI does not have a diesel particulate filter because our EPA would not mandate clean fuel for ten years so cleaner diesels could be designed, however, it does meet tier 2, bin 10 emissions standards (so it is not exactly spewing black soot); it can run on 100% on three different renewable fuels without losing fuel economy, without modification, which substantially reduces most harmful substances from the tailpipe well below comparable gas cars; it does emit less HCs, CO, VOCs, and CO2 than comparable gas cars while running on regular diesel fuel and only exceeds gas cars with respect to PM and NOx; and it does get 44 mpg for most drivers as compared to 26 mpg for the gas-powered Jetta owner (source: www.fueleconomy.gov--"drivers' like you" data).

Liter for liter, diesels are now on par with naturally-aspired gas cars with respect to horsepower and refinement while providing 1 1/2 times the torque and an average of 35% better fuel economy. Modern diesels are slightly louder at idle, about the same noise level during acceleration, and are usually quieter in highway cruising as comparable, gas cars. Any other negative performance perspectives made on this board are based on outdated information from folks who haven't driven a modern diesel vehicle.

Diesel fuel pumps are located at 45% of all retail fuel stations nationwide*; more along the highway, and since most diesels can go over 650 miles on one tank of fuel, diesel drivers won't need to find so many pumps. And why would someone need to use gasoline in an emergency in a car that doesn't use gas as if that is a prerequisite to drive in the U.S.??? I suppose when electric cars come out, some of us will want them to run on gasoline in an emergency. Has gasoline become so ingrained in our society that we can think beyond it?

[bob]

Ed
about chrysler diesels why they have been ignored because they are worth nothing
garbage, scrap