Study Shows Diesel May Have Advantages Over Hybrids

Although hybrids currently enjoy frontrunner status among environmentally conscious car shoppers, a recent study conducted by the RAND Corporation suggests clean diesel technology may have advantages over hybrids and ethanol vehicles, both for the consumer and for the environment. When factoring in the cost of making and transporting fuels, cost to the consumer and various impacts use of the fuel has on energy security and U.S. oil dependence, diesel fuel stacks up well against green alternatives.           

Over the course of a vehicle’s lifetime, the advanced diesel technology shows greater savings, ranging from several hundred to a few thousand dollars depending on the type of vehicle. Although diesel fuel is on average more expensive than gasoline, it’s also more efficient, and the cost of the technology drives up the price of hybrids. That finding could change if hybrid price tags begin dropping.             

The study also gives clean diesel engines a slight nod over hybrids from a societal point of view. After factoring in the cost of hybrid technology and the increased performance of diesel fuel, RAND found that diesel engines hold an environmental advantage. As Wired.com points out, however, this does not factor in diesel’s contribution to black carbon, which next to carbon dioxide is thought to be the emission most responsible for climate change.             

With diesels making up a miniscule chunk of vehicles sold in the U.S., hybrids will likely maintain their easy domination of the market for the foreseeable future. However, that does not mean diesel won’t make inroads. Chrysler Group has the Mercedes E320 BlueTec and the Jeep Liberty CRD, while Volkswagen has scheduled the release of a clean-diesel Jetta for late summer 2008.

Diesels Better for Society than Hybrids, Study Finds (wired.com)

Comments

Just wondering why we mention the "chrysler group" ater the divorce, and why the liberty CRD is mentioned after being long gone - in fact the grand cherokee diesel is pictured at the top.

color me a bit confused.

It still suprises me how poorly Jeep markets their diesel Grand Cherokee. First, they make the CRD an option on only the most expensive Grand Cherokee trim: the Overland (a problem they have since fixed). Then, they don't advertise it all -- despite the green street cred (hopefully, Jeep will fix this problem too).

VW also gets a black eye on their diesel strategy, despite being a diesel innovator. Despite knowing about clear air regs years in advance, and knowing that diesels comprised a significant percentage of their Jetta sales, they still didn't plan ahead and have been without a TDI since the 2006 model year. Then, they goof the engineering of their 2009 TDI, delaying it further (until Spring of 2009).

It is true that Diesel operated vehicle - when properly equipped with the necessary exhaust system, can provide many advantages over Hybrids. However, I hope that this doesn't give an excuse for auto-makers to jump on the bandwagon and start making diesel vehicles instead of hybrids, electric, or whatever they are....
(1) Diesel is a bandage approach. It still uses petroleum based fuel, which is limited. It still emits harmful exhaust gas.
(2) Hybrid, or ultimately, electric vehicles, are best suited for Metro city lifestyles, and hopefully to the rural area as well when the infrastructure is well established. In city driving, if you are gentle on the hybrids, you are using essentially NO gasoline, and the vehicle isn't emitting any harmful exhaust.
(3) Cost of technology (future) for cleaner vehicles will always be extremely expensive at 1st, then comes down gradually. However, the "push" to get over that bump is necessary. If all of us are thinking "diesel is the answer," plus the fact that we know diesel technology is much cheaper - 'coz it's here already, then we'll never have the energy to push our drive to clean energy at all, as there's an easy-way-out.

AR, hybrids cannot use no gasoline, something has to charge the batteries. If you only operate one in a metro environment, it is going to have to run the engine some of the time in that environment simply in order to function. Of course, a plugin hybrid solves that one, but moves the emissions elsewhere.

I'm waiting to see what happens with diesel hybrids. It's not quite a marriage made in heaven - especially the weight - but the combined advantages ought to be interesting.

I was also thinking about diesel-electric hybrids and wondering why no one has built one yet. I guess it's just a matter of diminishing returns.

Diesels have one big advantage that is usually missed in these articles - they can run on Biodiesel with no modifications. A TDI Jetta using Biodiesel makes a Prius look like a Hummer in terms of net environmenal effect. Where I live in Seattle, where Biodiesel is readily available, it seems like just about every person with a TDI or Diesel engine opts to run it on biodiesel. The question becomes "Why not?"
Its much cheaper to run than a gas vehicle, right now Biodiesel is cheaper than Diesel, still has a lot of power, is an available technology (sorry hydrogen) and has a negligable net carbon effect (What comes out of your tailpipe is offset by what went into the plants that made your fuel.)
So I say - bring it. More diesels passenger cars = more biodiesel use.

Keith

Its a general opinion that Bio-Diesel is more expensive than Petro-Diesel, can you show me where its cheaper.

This site shows the prices of Ethanol and its more expensive than gas at energy equivalent.

http://www.aaafuelgaugereport.com/

Keith has a good point; as more people buy diesel vehicles, the demand for diesel and biodiesel will rise, and it will become more widley available.

Biodiesel is the future. But it is like everything, at the beginning, ABS was only for a few cars, or air conditioning and now is in almost all cars, just wait until most of the organic waste can be recycled into it. Think about all the oil.

You can get 40 mpg with most of the Europeans TDI. In fact, now more than half of the new cars in Europe are diesel.

And please, Jeep, make the Grand Cherokee Cheaper.
Did you know that you can get the Dodge models with diesel engines in Europe?

Stephen Markley:

The particles that are created during the burning of Diesel fuels can be cleaned up using particle filters. Most European cars now come as standard or have as a low cost option these filters. They reduse emmisions even further.

Maybe it would also be worthwhile looking at the major European lorry, ehm, truck manufacturers. They are using the AdBlue additive (Bluetec) or exhaust gas recirculation to drive down the polution from the tailpipe.

Amuro Ray:

Hybrids are the real band-aid. Diesel cars make up for a lot of sales Europe and Worldwide. And have done for a long time. It is established technology, just like the Otto(Petrol) engine.

Hybrids use batteries to store power. These Ni-Cad batteries need a lot of recourses and processing in their manufacture. There is a reason we recycle batteries; THEY ARE BAD FOR THE ENVIRONMENT. Making more of them is not benificial, especially if they are used in Escalades which pretend to be green.

As far as fully electric vehicles go: they get their power from a central power plant. Unless this is hydro-power it is not going to be clean. Coal, Nuclear, they all use somekind of fuel. And to believe electric vehicles are zero emission vehicles is like believing in fairytales.

Lil'Tom:
PSA (Peugeot/Citroen) are preparing a Diesel Hybrid version of their Golf/Rabbit/Jetta/Corrola size cars in Europe. The amount of fuel used is obviously a lot less than the Prius due to Diesel fuel containing more releasable energy per liter.

Per Olaf:
For over a decade already some Germans just in North Western part of Germany have been using Bio-Diesel made from Rapeseed oil. You need minor alterations to ensure your average VAG TDI engine can run both Bio- and normal Diesel but it works quite well.

I myself am getting a new Ford Mondeo 1.8TDCI Estate shortly. With 150bhp and 6 gears it will be frugal and have plenty performance. My current Mondeo has a 2.0 TDCI with 110bhp and this is enough to comfortable cruise at 95mph.

i want to see a per gallon per penny comparison on the ethanol, regular gas, premium gas, and diesel.

I love diesels. I'd rather have one of those over a Hybrid any day. i have a friend with a Jetta and they can go 500 miles on a tank of bio diesel. hehe.

UK Diesel Driver:

To claim hybrids are the real band-aid is just silly. Even if the world goes diesel, there are still going to be problems with oil, especially as China and India continue to increase their use. This is inevitable, and can only be extended if we use horribly-polluting tar-sands, etc.

Hybrid vehicles offer amazing potential, especially once the battery technology changes. Next generation hybrids offer the ability to travel as much as 40 miles or more with ONLY electricity. Such hybrids are ALREADY being built today in the States by such groups as Calcars.org or Hybrids-Plus.com.

Diesel will NEVER achieve such levels. Diesel, as a solution to oil problems, is obviously a band-aid because it has no future. Diesels cannot survive a petroleum-free world.

Hybrids, on the other hand, can evolve into plug-in hybrids, range-extended electric hybrids, fuel cell hybrid vehicles, etc.

Calling such potential a band-aide is like saying the Commodore 64 proved that computers had no future.

Hybridcarblog.com

Chad Snyder:

How will the power be generated for a plug-in hybrid? The efficiency when burning large amounts of fossil fuels centrally (coal / gas / etc powerplants) might be larger, but these are offset by the losses in distribution. Nuclear causes less CO2 but has a whole other set of issues I would not like to leave future generations with.

Hydro-power is not feasible because there are not enough large lakes with a huge height difference potential available in the world. Tidal power is by no means grown up and will take another decade to mature. Wind energy is unreliable and not that effective in urban environments. Solar power is a joke if you consider that to actually make a solar panel a lot of planet dies.

Batteries as a rule are made of a lot of nasty stuff. If you use a lot of them to store electricity you will have to therefore add a lot of environmentally bad elements to a motor. Adding this weight also makes the car more sluggish and requires larger engines again.

Filling the batteries from socket in the wall DOES NOT MEAN YOU DO NOT POLLUTE THE ENVIRONMENT. It means that somewhere far away from your house a highly poluting powerplant has already spewed it's toxic fumes into the air.

Don't get me wrong. I believe in recycling and have been doing so since I was a little boy. I do not believe that ultimately Diesel and/or Petrol is the future. It is a mature technology though that we have based our whole economy on. They work well in tandem due to the fact that they both use different fractions of the oil refining process. Solely Diesel or Petrol will not save the planet, but neither will electric cars.

Things like working from home and public transport will change the world. I used to cycle to work (before I had a 50 mile daily commute) and that felt great. I was a lot happier when I cycled due to the increased exercise.

And thanks for mentioning the C64. I have just spend a few hours tonight playing Outrun after retrieving it from my (insulated) loft... ;)

UK Driver knows zip about electricity generation. FYI, Nuclear power generates zero Carbon Dioxide emissions, and will be an increasing part of the world energy mix in the future, and those plants will be charging up plug-in hybrids and pure electric cars during off-peak hours. If your vision of the future is highways full of bicycles and stinking diesel vehicles, you're in for a big surprise when the Plug In hybrids hit the road in 2010. The electric only Tesla going on the market this year goes zero to 100 mph in 12.1 seconds, and travels 220 miles on a single charge, according to Automobile Magazine. Wake up and smell the future - maybe you've been smelling diesel fumes too long.

There are hybrid -diesel buses in the city Buses of NY... OH... what about the radioactive waste associated with generating electricity from nuclear

Sadly the cost to environment on the front and back end of producing and scrapping an electric vehicle is not sustainable. The pollutants generated during the production of the batteries are caomparable to driving a v10 gas engine for 15 years straight, 24hrs a day. Scrapping these batteries is easy, it's the transportation by a big diesel driven cloud machine, hauling them thousands of miles away to the facility that breaks them down that makes up for the vehicles lack of emmisions during its lifetime.

But hey, we are so far removed from the build scrap process that who cares right. Those are someone elses problems, the vehicle is saving the environment while we are driving it and thats what really matters. Lets not kid ourselves, we are just passing our carbon emissions elsewhere, such sharing people.

We must also take into consideration what must happen to the gross national product and the results in real production and sale of goods in order to initialy afoard these more ecpensive vehicles. If we have to make more stuff to sell more stuff then we are once again passing our carbon elsewhere. What a viscious cycle.

So we have to start somewhere. I think Mercedes Benz has put a real effort into a plan that makes sense. Continue to build the most efficient gas vehicles possible. Refine the diesel vehicle to the utmost in efficiency. While, trying to engineer a sustainable optition for a non-fossil fuel car in the future. They have stated they would rather shoulder the stink eye that they are currently getting for not having a hybrid than just pass there portion of carbon emmiting vehicle off to some else and put out an electric vehicle.

Mercedes new Bluetec diesel is a fantastic system. It utilizes a synthetic urine injector and impellar in the precat to de-suspend the black carbon particulate in the exhaust. It has proven to be clean enough to clear our California emissions standard and the vehicles are being sold now. I've driven the E-class, and man is it poweful. The use of water jackets around the piston sleeves really quites dieseling effect.

I have already recieved orders from Honda R&D and Toyota for the components so they can take them apart and back build them. Oh, don't forget, Mercedes is probably the largest driving force for new and better technology in the automotive industry. Almost all the great systems and saftey features you see on cars today came from Stuttgart Baby. Hell, the Kia Sorrento looks so much like ML320 that as a car guy I still have to double take to see the badging.

I don't think the real answer has been developed yet. Be fuel wise, and lend what support we can to the cause and wait it out.