Head to Head: Mazdaspeed3 vs. VW GTI 4-Door
This is the third head-to-head post we’ve done featuring two of the cars we got an early look at last week. We’ve been criticized heavily for not comparing more exact models and trim levels, but we were working with what we had and hopefully explained our reasoning the entire way. BUT, now we match two vehicles that couldn’t be more alike in every way. We recently reviewed the Mazdaspeed3 in full and also featured the two-door GTI in a Cheap Speed Faceoff. But last week we were able to look at the all-new four-door GTI — offered in the U.S. for the first time — and it naturally fell into place next to the Mazdaspeed3. Again, David Thomas and Mike Hanley took their turns in the two. Read on to see if they could agree on a winner.
DT: There’s no denying the Mazdaspeed3 is fast. Crazy fast. Way faster than the GTI. Way faster than anything else on the market at this price. The 263-hp turbo four-cylinder is a blast, and after a short learning period shifting becomes second nature. I loved throwing this red baby around corners, even if the understeer took over more than any car normally should. This is a sports car, folks. Hold on and enjoy it.
MH: Even though it's a four-door hatchback, the Mazdaspeed3's aggressive looks attract attention, especially when it's painted bright red. Even painted a more pedestrian blue or black, the Mazdaspeed3's loud, droning exhaust note is likely to turn heads (Dave compared it to an idling lawn mower in his full review). The turbocharged four-cylinder is smooth, strong and rev-happy. The driver's seat's aggressive bolsters kept me in place during fast cornering, and there's a sizeable cargo area behind the second-row seats for quick (literally) runs to the grocery store.
DT: The GTI four-door was the first time I tested a GTI with a six-speed manual shifter rather than VW’s superb DSG. It was OK, but my foot-hand coordination was not as precise as the DSG’s paddle shifting. Don’t get me wrong, the six-speed is a fine shifter and probably compares to the Mazda’s or is slightly better, but it wouldn’t win me over. It does keep the price down, though, versus the DSG option.
What the GTI does best is offer a planted feeling that the Mazda cannot because of all that power going to the 3’s front wheels. You feel more in control of the GTI, and usually that’s a huge plus. But for experienced drivers who want a rush, it doesn’t deliver like the Mazda. Not even close.
MH: Though the GTI's turbocharged four-cylinder doesn't have the level of urgency of the Mazdaspeed3's, it bests the car in a few other areas. The GTI's interior has an upscale, luxurious look and feel to it, while the Mazdaspeed3's cabin is fitted with a variety of black plastic pieces that don't equal the GTI's trim in terms of quality. I also had more room in the backseat of the GTI, and liked its slick six-speed manual more than the Mazdaspeed3's manual. Considering the GTI's performance orientation, however, I found its light steering out of place; a little more driver involvement would be much appreciated.
DT: Overall I think looks and interior go slightly to the GTI, but they’re also subjective. I found the Mazdaspeed3 not outrageously pandering to the boy-racer crowd, and even the huge spoiler seemed almost subtle. Sure, the GTI’s interior is nicer, but the Mazda isn’t junk. Compared to other Japanese compacts it’s right up there, and the seats are extremely supportive. If only the Mazda didn’t have that droning exhaust it would be perfect. Even with it I don’t think a sporting man can turn it down. What do you say to that Mike? You a sporting man or not?
MH: Besides its admirable engine, the fact that the Mazdaspeed3 has such a pervasive exhaust note will likely make it an even more compelling performance-car buy for a certain set of enthusiasts. I just don't find myself in this camp. The GTI has a better manual transmission, and its interior is way better than the Mazdaspeed3's. Maybe my vote has been tainted somewhat by my daily slogs on Chicago's potholed-riddled roads and gridlocked highways, but if you're buying one of these for your everyday car — as I suspect most buyers are — the GTI is easier to live with. It does give up some performance to the Mazdaspeed3, but pure performance isn't what these cars are all about. They're hatchbacks, after all.
Winner: Tie
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Good review! I disagreed with the last sentence though. Why shouldn't hatchback pocket rockets be viewed as performance cars? After all, look what rallye road racing is about. Thanks.
Win or Lose...there is no TIE
Yes, the VW has the nicer interior, but its reliability will be lower and its operating costs after the warranty expires will be much higher.
I didn't say hatchbacks shouldn't be considered performance cars. But if you're looking for an all-out performance machine, there are plenty of coupes to choose from. The appeal of these is that they offer what those kinds of cars don't, like a usable back seat and real cargo room in addition to entertaining performance.
Who cares about interior if they want an "all-out performance machine"? Those are folks that buys SL65AMG, not GTI or Mazdaspeed3, whose main target is 20 something who likes the versatility of hatchback and also wants some serious performance.
J--
I think interior quality becomes even more important in the ultra-luxury-performance realm that the SL65 AMG plays in. However, I couldn't agree with you more on the versatility aspect of these two cars.
Well, I am in the market for either car and now you have just reminded me that I don't know which one I will be buying. We already have an A3 so maybe the MSP3 or a mini will do.
VW and Audi, dump the ugly front grill design. It sucks and makes your product look like an extra plastic part glued on to the exterior. My 5 y.o. could have done a better job building a toy model car.
Funny, I think the new grills on the VW's and Audi's are great.
It's bold without being ugly bold, like the Chrysler/Dodge design.
Mike,
Would you please let me know if there is another vehicle in this price range that offers as much interior space and similar performance, other than the WRX wagon?
Personally, I'm not much for plaid, and thus, I think that the interior in the 3 is much better.
Yes You All Have Great Opinions But Have You Seen One And Test Drove One Gary Erickson Of Fort Myers Volkswagen Can Help Stop Bye And Say HI
Great review. The fact is that these are different cars that appeal to different types of drivers. Those of us who value handling and acceleration more than having a pretty dashboard will end up in the Mazda because of its stronger motor, better handling, and the standard limited slip differential (which is crucial for putting down the kind of power that these cars are capable of). Those of us who care more about comfort, fit and finish, and don't mind going to the dealership once every few months for warranty work will end up in the Volkswagon...
For me, there really is no contest - the Speed 3 has beaten the Gti at it's own game.
I've been looking closely at both cars for my next purchase. I live in the Chicago area and had to test drive a standard Mazda 3 Grand Touring because I could not find the Mazdaspeed 3. Only a select few Mazda dealers are authorizied to sell Mazdaspeed. The authorized dealer I went to did not have one in stock, and the 3 other dealers were not authorized. I was extremely impressed with the 3 in its standard version, probably the best value. However I had one major flaw with this car that I could not get past. The right leg tunnel is entirely too narrow. My leg was pressed hard against the center console, and I had a difficult time not hitting the brake pedal when going for the gas. The pedals are much too close for my size 12 shoes!! The design was obviously taylored for smaller Japanese folks. This point was driven home in a recent Car & Driver comparison between the 3 and the Rabbit. I do not know if the Speed3 has the same problem, but I expect so. I am also looking for an auto trans., which the Speed3 does not offer. I'm a driving enthusiast as much as the next guy, but I can get the best of both worlds with the DSG trans. in the GTI, and the GTI performance and handling are more than adequate. I drive in too much stop and go traffic for a manual to be practical. I'm also not into training my wife to drive a manual...=P What I cannot get for the same $$ as the Mazda in the VW is leather heated power seats, sunroof, expected reliablity. These options in the GTI push the sticker north of $28G.
Well im looking into getting one of these 2 cars very soon like within the next week and after reading this article which I expected to help im even more undecided. Before reading the article I was 100% on the GTI. Now after reading the article it seems the mazdaspeed3 is a better car then I initially thought and sounds alot faster then I thought as well. I am also undecided on DSG or Manual if I go with the GTI. So lots of decisions to make, I don't know if I should go with the GTI for its looks and German quality, or the MS3 to get that extra boost in speed.
I keep seeing these posts about 'german quality and reliability'. Having worked at a VW dealership for a year I can honestly say that new VW's simply are not on par with previous generations. The VAG group has become the Ford of Europe. I was astounded at the frequency of rediculous problems I would see coming into the shop on new VW's. The only company that still has "German Quality" is BMW. As for Mazda, I owned a high milage Miata for 3 years and didn't have a single problem. My vote goes with the Mazda.
I drove the 2007 Mazdaspeed 3 and GTI and liked them for different reasons...
The Mazdaspeed3 is the fastest, but it doesn't feel as refined as the GTI. Plus, the exhaust is very boomy at freeway speeds.
The GTI feels like a better engineered package and it is quieter, but I worry about VW reliability. Who wants to deal with lots of problems, even if you have an extended warranty? I'd end up hating it.
I also drove the 2007 Civic Si coupe and sedan, but the "performance" exhaust is in your ears all the time. The car is a blast to drive when you feel like driving fast, but who wants to listen to exhaust all the time?
I also drove the Mazda 3 hatchback. It performs great for an economy car, but it can't complete with the MS3 and GTI. But it's a lot of car for the money, especially for an enthusiast.
Mazda Speed3kicks ass. For all you driving enthusiasts who enjoy holding on for fast rides should check this car out. I did and bought a black one. It is just fun!! It also has more subtle styling so us older enthusiasts can drive it without looking too boyish. The GTI is more boyish like the sti and evo. Although the sti and evo are super cars i like alot especially the evo mr. But for 13000 less i bought the Speed3 and kept my CRV for bad weather.
You are forgetting that you can flash the GTIs engine control chip and easily get 260hp and 270lb-ft. Then it would beat the crap out of the Mazdaspeed.
And say what you will, but the GTI has a lexus interior and the Mazda has a Mazda/Ford interior. Plus I paid 21k for my '07 GTI
If you find yourself spending hours each week in bumper to bumper city traffic, you will find yourself appreciating the more upscale interiors.
Just flashing the GTI's chip doesn't mean that it will "beat the crap" out of the Mazda, because it won't. First of all the GTI is tuned specifically for it's current HP, torque, and handling setup. Adding that much horsepower will change the dynamics of the GTI. It will give you the extra straightline speed, but unless you REALLY know, which you don't, you cannot say that a "flashed" GTI will "beat the crap" out of the MPS 3. In addition, you would create the same torque steer problem that the Mazda engineers (not Ford) have controlled. Finally, such a change to a GTI will result in decreased cornering ability due to the inherent oversteer of cars having this kind of horsepower, which again, Mazda engineers have done their best to control. Sounds like just flashing the car will make it less GTI and more Mustang (as in 1990 5.0), unless you want to fork over several thousands of more bucks to make the whole thing work (suspension, structural reinforcements, steering, software - which you won't the ablity to even fiddle with)). Then you're talking about a car that is well above 35K in the end. Plus what we are talking about here? This discussion should stick with cars straight out of the box.
luxury is in the eye of the beholder. The VW and Mazda fit their nature. MPS3 is built in Japan, and the VW (I believe) in built in Germany. There is no quarrel that in terms of assmebly quality, that both are above average. So let's just trash the assumption that just because Ford owns Mazda, that the car has the typical Ford feel, because it doesn't. The same can be said for the VW. It's not assembled in Mexico, so we cannot give it that golf feel either.
Oh pleez, you cant put the GTI's interior quality even on the same plain as the Lexus. When I sit in the luxury of my Lexus IS 350, I'm not even remotely thinking about how well the GTI stacks up to it.
I don't know about you guys, but in reading the editor's comment, it sounds like they just gave the GTI a mercy vote, so that GTI kingdom's feelings won't be hurt so bad. In every objective test, the kinds that stir the driving passion of real men, the Mazda won almost every single one.
4 door Civic SI = nice
4 door GTI = nice
4 door MPS3 = priceless
nuff said.
all 4 doors = junk
nuff said
"nuff said" = junk
I love these reviews. Then again I love the people who complain about a subcompact car being to small for there size 12 shoes. DUH its a small car what do you expect 300C interior space in half the area? Then complain that you want a auto trans in a performance minded car. Your looking at the wrong car pally try a minivan I'm sure your wife would love it..... Anyway I have driven both and they are both good cars for the price. However given the latest reliability issues with VW and the fact I had a bigger grin on my face with the speed3 that what I got.
Ask my wife, I research major purchases to death. I looked heavily at the offerings in this segment. Being a very satified Honda owner, my initial preference was the Civic Si sedan. The second was the GTI. The last was the Mazda. I read and compared. Then I went and drove all 3 on the same rainy Saturday. When all was said and done, the actual driving experience made it a no-brainer. The hands down winner for my taste was the Mazda. I bought a Cosmic Blue MS3GT the following week. I guess it comes down to your personal weighting of their characteristics. The VW was posh, but left me cold in terms of performance. The Honda was precise, but too high strung. The Mazda grunts out low RPM torque, handles very confidently, and provides excellent feedback. If you consider yourself a 'driver' first an foremost, the choice becomes easier.
why gti vs mazdaspeed 3??? hmp! next time... r32 vs mazdaspeed 3... haha 250 hp vs 263 hp... what do you think...?
I think there is a $10,000 Diff. No comparison here. More like a base 3 series and R32 comp.
and yes I own a 06 GTI DSG. Love the car. Fun to drive with nice features and cabin trim is classy. I have a dealer within 2 mi and they have loaners so no biggie on the future possible quality issues. Bought the car used Pkg 2 DSG for under 21 and and MSRP was over 27 with 7500 mi. Have been a Honda and Toyota owner since '92, all 5 speeds so no comments on sticks please. I have had the car for 2000 mi. and so far nothing but GRINS !!!
gti is built in south africa not germany!
I don't usually post replies, but I've decided to break down ;)
First things first -- the R32 will go against the WRX sti -- it just makes sense.
Second -- I have been in Germany for the past year and have now had the chance to take both of these cars on the road -- both with 6-speed (no DSG...but I'll have to try it, from what I have read). I have to say, the GTI feels more stable at 240km/h (about 150 mp/h) and I do have a personal bias toward the design (yes, driving enthusiast with an interest in looks as well). However, the mazda was more fun to drive in the city and on HUGE thing (that I REALLY hope the folks at VW start to pay MUCH, MUCH more attention to...and I'm not talking lip service) is reliability. It may be that this GTI is more reliable, we'll have to wait and see, but the past decade has been TERRIBLE for VWAG in terms of reliability and it doesn't look like they are really trying to correct that problem.
In the end, I don't think it matters, in the US, if a car feels better at 150mph and the reliability alone will probably win me over for the Mazda.
Also, not that I am a big Ford fan but I have to say Ford has been doing great things for some other brands. Yes, Mazda has a general history or reliability, but Ford has certainly turned many other brands, once known for how good they looked while parked at the repair shop, into something that can be driven (almost) every day -- ie. Land Rover, Volvo, Jaguar; all brands that were otherwise appealing in any category EXCEPT reliability. Interestingly enough, however, Ford still has a higher association with un-reliable cars than VWAG, in Europe...but it seems VWAG is trying very hard to capture that title!
Thanks for another review for me to ponder, though I already ordered my MS3 yesterday. I am, first and foremost, a driver. Second, I'm an automotive engineer. With that said, I hold firm that BMW is THE driver's car. Always has been. And while still in debt from college, I've never felt as at home in a driver's car (aside from being in a Bimmer) as when I first drove a MS3. Before I pulled out of the dealer's lot, I knew it would be my first new car purchase. Two words: driver feedback, most importantly in the steering department. Who knew electric/hydraulic power assist could feel so goooooood? A few years down the road, I'll most likely have a 335i (hard to imagine a new M3 that can out-shine it!!!), but with the value I'll be getting from my MS3, it is difficult to imagine that I'd want to throw down 40k after enjoying the "poor man's BMW", which at half the price, is almost as much fun!
I have to agee with you on the BMW -- except the standard e90 doesn't fair very well on a windy autobahn. This week I got to drive the 325 coupe...wow. Okay, so it only has 218bhp, but I can attest that the 153mph "top-speed" is not acurate. I get to drive on the autobahn late at night, back from the airport, when there is not a sole around (except for a merc SL500 that I admired as I past). On an open road, this car handles like a dream...litterally. The steering is very tight as low speeds, no problem unless you are used to variable steering, but at 264kph (164 mph -- the highest sustainable speed this car seems to handle while still under control) the steering is perfect and the feel is sublime. I'd agree that the car is simply made to drive...definitely gets my vote; though I retain the right to change my mind once I get to test the M3 and the Audi S4.
I do not reccommend these speeds, even on the autobahn, during regular hours -- you simply come up too fast. However, the good news, the 325 also stops on a dime. Not bad...but the price...OUCH! I'll probably never buy one for that much...especially in the US where the speed really doesn't matter.
Oh, yeah...in the super extreme price category, I did have to pull over once and let a brand new 911 turbo pass me like I was standing still! I really only saw it long enough to make out the *turbo*...un-real. ...but that get you up to $170,000 something, right? Double-OUCH!
Speed 3's exhaust isn't that loud at all. You have ear problems. Go see a doctor.
the GTI that is in North America is built in wolfsburf as are the Rabbits. They are also built in South Africa but those don't reach our shores
I have no opinion of either car,because I dont like the looks of sawed off Gremlin look a likes...but the only redeeming quality between these cars for me is the advertising....GTIs" VeeDubb in the house....." is a priceless bit of German "master race" muscle flexing....almost as insane as the mid 80s TV Spot "Kleine GTI" song (which played to the tunes of 1965's "Lil GTO).
I'd be interested to know which one has the bigger cargo area in the back? The MazdaSpeed3 looks a bit longer, so I must infer that it's cargo area is also larger. Not that I need a whole lot of space, but this is a consideration for people looking to buy a hatchback.
I've driven the GTI with DSG, and it's incredible. I have yet to test the MazdaSpeed 3, but I plan on it.
Hey!
All of you need to go read the article below. These guys dyno tested a GTI, MazdaSpeed3, and a CiviSi.
The truth is in the numbers!
http://www.automobilemag.com/features/0610_gti_civic_mazdaspeed3_dyno/
Hi. This might seem like it's coming out of left field, but please don't flame me.
I'm a single 38 year old woman, no kids, will be buying a car that will 97% be used to drive around doing errands / short commute to work within the city (Toronto, Canada) by myself.
I love the idea of a hatch-back for its practicality. And of a performance car for the fun. And of buying a relatively inexpensive car so I can park on city streets, etc., without feeling sick about possible dings as I know I would if I bought a BMW.
I love the looks/ sleek interior of the GTI and driving it is fun but -eek! - the reliability issue has me seriously worried.
But let's face it... the MazdaSpeed3 seems to be built for/ marketed to 25-year old guys who want to race around town; so much of its design says "young testosterone" to me. (Even the brochure they gave me states "It's the upstart younger brother that'll never settle down. The one that runs with a faster, tougher crowd.")
I have no problem with the tuner crowd, but would I feel like a ridiculous old lady driving this car and its gigantic spoiler? Is a GTI really better suited to a professional urban woman who enjoys a peppy car but doesn't feel the need for an upscale automobile?
Sally Said:
"...would I feel like a ridiculous old lady driving this car and its gigantic spoiler?"
It sounds like you've already answered this question for yourself. I think the answer depends largely on how much you care about what people think of you and your car (whether it suits your personality/profession, what it says about your personality/priorities/interests, etc). Some people really believe that professionals should drive certain types of cars. I'm not one of them. On my list of priorities, safety, fun, reliability and practicality/usability (and lately fuel economy) all rank way higher than image. I'm not driving the car for everyone else.
I wish I could say that people will think the same of you whether you drive a MazdaSpeed3 or a BMW 3-Series, but we know it's not true. People will make assumptions about your profession, your priorities, your personality, etc., based on the car they see you driving.
If that matters to you -- and I suspect that it does, based on your comment about not getting a BMW because of dints/ding potential and the fact that you're asking this question in the first place -- then the GTI might be the better choice because:
1. It's more conservatively-styled
2. VW is generally considered more "premium" than Mazda in North America
Be honest with yourself about what you'll really be able to live with and be happy with -- not just as far as reliability, fun-to-drive factor, etc., but also with respect to the "message" that people receive when they see you driving that car. If what you really want is a BMW, you can afford a BMW, and you would consider anything else a compromise, then just get a BMW :)
I hope that helps somewhat.
To Sally: Realistically, unless they notice the "MazdaSpeed" badge on the back, the average person seeing a MazdaSpeed3 drive past won't realize that it's not "just another one of those Mazda3 5-doors they've been seeing on the streets for the past 3 years...with a modified (louder) exhaust system." If you'd be uncomfortable being seen driving a Mazda3 5-door, then you'd probably also be uncomfortable being seen in a MazdaSpeed3.
Sally,
I totally understand where you are coming from about the dings (having lived in Philadelphia for a few years). At that time, in my life, I drove a 3rd gen regular old Golf and was just as annoyed (paranoid perhaps) about dings as I would have been with a BMW. However, the reliability certainly does play an eek! role here and I'm not sure when that will change. The one good thing that this GTI has going for it, in that department, is its origination in Wolfsburg. My first golf was built there and I had almost ZERO issues with it.
In your case I would say that Ford has positioned this Mazda out of your market -- not so much with the spoiler on the back, but with the 'tuned' exhaust (that ridiculous 'poser-type' trend of trying to make an inline 4 sound like a Ferrari 12 -- but that is personal bias...some people like their exhaust and some prefer driving).
If you are not in a hurry, you may wait and test-drive the BMW 1. I have driven it over here and, depending on what they charge for the BMW name, it may be exactly what you are looking for. Alternatively, you may be surprised with a test drive of the currently available BMW hatchback -- the MINI. The last generation to hit the states was more 'cute' than anything else, but the new gen actually drives very nicely. Furthermore, the foot pedals are situated in such a way that heel-toe shifting is almost child’s play -- no need to pay extra for a GTI with 'rev-matched' down-shifts when you can do it yourself!
To throw one more option at you, have you driven the Audi A3? Personally, I find that the Audi's offer a firmer, sportier drive than the BMW (waiting for lightning to strike now!) -- though the BMW styling is nicer -- and even the A3 is far more stable in the wind and snow than the 3-series (7-series is quite a different story!). The A3 is basically marketed to your crowd of dynamic, professional, city-dwellers who want options ...with the quattro all-wheel drive for areas where there may be sudden bouts of inclement weather (*cough* Canada *cough*).
Lots of options for you...and if you are truly only going to drive around the city, test-drive a Smart ForTwo when they become available (are they already in Canada?). The new version feels much more sporty than the last and, while it will not make you *grin* to smash the gas pedal, it will make you grin when the problem of 'finding a parking space' is no longer something you can relate to!
Good luck -- I hope I haven't confused you more than helped!
Hey Sally,
How about a regular Mazda3? That way you don't get the boy-racer stuff, but a decent peppy hatch. You can even get a loaded Grand Touring with Moonroof; no moonroof in the Mazdaspeed.
L
I second Eric's recommendation of the Audi A3. If you're looking for "sophisticated fun" then, IMO, A3 > GTI > Mazdaspeed3. I don't know if resale value matters to you, but the A3 will also probably have the lowest depreciation of the three models.
Hey Sally,
Ford does not position Mazda. Altough Ford owns a majority stake (51%) in Mazda, it does not own Mazda, and Mazda operates independently in it's product offerings.
Secondly, I own a Mazdaspeed 3, and I don't know what the gripe is about the sound of the exhaust. It's not like it farting around all day long. It's tastefully subdued. Also, this car is barely distinguishable between the regular 3, so I don't know why "boy-racer" is even part of these conversations.
If you want a premium car then spend the extra 10K and get the A3, but please, let's stick with the topic at hand.
The Mazdaspeed is built in Japan, and if you really look at the historcal depreciation values of GTI's and Mazda 3/Proteges/323, there isn't much difference. Both are above average. I agree that the A3 will appreciate slightly higher..
I will say that the GTI ia a fine car, but the Mazdaspeed will kick the pants out of both the A3 and GTI. If you're not into kicking butt, then get the GTI. But us guys who like to smash the pedals, the Mazdaspeed 3 scares the crap out of the GTI MkV drivers. Quite a few GTI's avoid me when they see me creep up.
i second take3. being a mazda 3 owner, there is nothing "ford-like" about them. if anything, it is mazda's technology that is currently saving ford. ford fusion, edge, and the euro escort...that's primarily mazda design. mazda 3 predominantly typical japanese technology and assembly at it's best. that's why it is regarded as such a good car all over the world.
This was an interesting review to come across, I remember REALLY wanting a Mazdaspeed6. But couldn't afford the 34k price tag, so I was looking at more cheaper "performance" cars. Driving both the GTi and the Mazdaspeed3, I would have picked the MS3. Though it does have aggressive torque steer if you get on the gas too quick , it's a GREAT car, and I like the interior better than the GTI (sorry I just didn't like that plaid cloth). The GTI is nice and the shifter may be smoother, but that car is meant for more "subtle" drivers... the MS3 compared to the GTI Mini Cooper S, Chevy Cobalt SS, tops them all in balls to walls performance and fun.
(Oh and after the price cuts I got a Mazdaspeed6 for 23k, so that beat in over the Mazdaspeed3 for me, but I would have definitely gotten a MS3).
OT ...
Have to question the A3 recommendation, with the caveat that I no longer have a feel for U.S. brand perception. In Germany, the A3 is girly in a wuss kind of way. (Um, civility is required toward other posters, not toward vehicles, right?) I don't know of any women over 30 and supporting themselves who own an A3.
If you're looking up-range within the VW group, you might as well take a look down-range, at Skoda models such as:
Octavia RS:
http://www.stern.de/sport-motor/autowelt/probefahrten/skoda/551222.html
Fabia:
http://www.stern.de/sport-motor/autowelt/probefahrten/skoda/:Skoda-Braves-Kindchen-/587738.html
Superb:
http://www.stern.de/sport-motor/autowelt/probefahrten/skoda/:Skoda-Superb-2.0-TDI-Kuscheliger-Preishammer/576162.html
Though I've never driven a GTI manufactured for the U.S. market, I'm not sure that those of us who've happily driven Wolfsburg Golfs should be boosting it for consumers in the N.A. market.
I'm surprised about the supposed "wuss" image of the A3 in Germany. I'll have to let my friend know that his brother's car -- his brother is a pro footballer in Germany -- is "girly in a wuss kind of way."
Maybe Americans are more open to the A3 than the German consumers of whom the previous poster speaks. I don't personally know a large enough number of A3 owners in this market to make broad statements about the image of the A3 here or about who buys them, so I'll let the stats from JD Power (JDP) do the talking:
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/audi/a3/2007
According to JDP, demand for the A3 is "medium", 75% of A3 drivers are male, and the primary age groups are 36-55 years of age (54%) and 16-35 years of age (34%).
That's beside the point, though.
Between the GTI and Mazdaspeed3 for Sally I vote GTI. They're both aimed at the same group of male, 16- to 35-year-old buyers -- young guns who, as was mentioned by a previous poster, like "kicking the pants" off of other cars and "kicking butt" on the street (i.e. males aged 16-35). Spend a few moments in their respective forums and this will become all to clear. The GTI is the more classy of the two, however, in my opinion...despite the extremely boring interior. It has enough power and torque to be fun to drive and it's less aggressively-styled than the Mazdaspeed3.
Overall, though, I have to third the A3 recommendation...since you live in Toronto and not in Germany.
Ok, Heres the deal simply put. I currently drive a 350z and love its looks and control. The road noise and harsh bumps have me looking for something better suited for everyday. I am no longer a kid by any means but I still love a car with spirit and I could care less about what other people think.
That said, I have drove both cars extensively.
The GTI is a better car for control, lane changing and quick turns. Yes the Mazda is faster, but the overall feel is slightly out of control and steering needs far more correction out of turns especially when accelerating.
Portions of the interior on the Mazda seem flimsy and the brand new 3 I drove already had a rattle. I HATE rattles. VW is KNOW for tight interiors.
Driving experience is far more than 0-60 time.
The VW is a better car overall. period.
As to the Reliability issue. I think its sad the VW with all its resources and man more years in the industry can't keep up with the Japanese to this day. But these numbers are based on averages and reported problems. I wonder if VW drivers are more picky.
Solution: LEASE the VW. let them fix anything that goes wrong.
I'm a 52 year old from Akron, Ohio (Green Actually).
I just purchased a Mazdaspeed 3 two days ago after test driving many high performing reputable cars. I own an 04 Solara V6 which I have found no fault in. The WOW factor of my SPEED 3 is completely off the scale. I can seat 3 more people very comfortably and haul luggage
if I want and get 28 miles a gallon. When I want to get a thrill all I have to do is press the pedal and the car turns into an absolute monster. It is an amazingly multi role versatile performer with many luxery comforts including a butt kicking radio/CD player. I find every excuse to drive it. I'm going to have to get the smile surgically removed from my face.
I just test drove an Audi A3 and GTI today. The Audi didn't impress me (steering not responsive, poor seats, nasty plain, cheap steering wheel). My old 03 Jetta wagon TDI drove better than the A3. However, the GTI was really nice - better interior than the Audi - and much less money for the GTI.
I am going to take a Mazda 3 GT out for a spin to compare w/ the GTI. Hope I like it as I come from a Ford family ;)
On the quality side, I must say... (and I love VWs) that our TDI (built in Germany) had many, many small and large issues. Everytime I took it in for an oil change, there was something wrong with it. And we had to take it in just to have it looked at w/ recalls, etc.
Interesting discussion here. I suspect Sally has made her choice by now, but I'll chime in, nonetheless.
A few months ago I was looking at the GTI, A3 and Speed3 as candidates for my next vehicle purchase. I'm in a similar demographic as Sally. From reading her post, it sounds like what she was looking for is really a Yuppie-mobile (but preferably one that's fun to drive). Looking back at my thought process for my vehicle search, that's really what it came down to. As a professional, I wanted a car that would fit that image/role, but that would also be fun to have around whenever the need struck me to step out of that role. I think this is what Sally was also looking for.
Audi A3 -- I wasn't as impressed by the A3 as I had hoped to be. Overall quality seemed good (but not amazing), but the package as a whole just didn't excite me at all. I also found the price gap between it and the 5-door GTI to be unreasonable for what you actually get. The A3 is small, expensive for what you get, and didn't actually feel luxurious to me. It struck me as very average, to be honest. Overall, though, in my opinion the A3 is still the best Yuppie-mobile of the three -- Audi name, conservative styling...
VW GTI -- I preferred the interior over that of the A3 (styling, layout) and found the quality to be good. I'm not crazy about the exterior styling (to state it mildly). It has a greater fun-to-drive factor than the A3. It also has a very different target buyer demographic than the A3...
Mazda Mazdaspeed3 -- I didn't even drive this car. As with the GTI, it's targeted at a very different buyer than the A3. It has the least conservative/most "trendy" styling of the three (interior and exterior). Sometimes I like it, sometimes I don't...the latter being more commonly the case. It has the worst fuel economy of the three vehicles and, in my opinion, is the least "classy" of the three vehicles. No amount of fun-to-drive could have changed my mind in favour of the Mazdaspeed3. The styling is not my cup of tea.
In the end I decided to broaden the search to include sedans. I tested the Infiniti G35 and BMW 335i and the search was over, immediately. The G35 is great, but the 335i is incredible. It's the most outstanding vehicle I have ever driven. Despite its 300 hp twin turbo engine I'm averaging 11L/100km city. The interior is perfect for me and the actual driving dynamics are great. The engine is amazingly smooth and powerful (nevermind the sound!), and the shifter is a delight. Passenger and driver space is good. The trunk is very large and has split folding rear seats as well as a ski pass-through. My only complaint is that interior cubby/storage space is minimal.
Another interesting vehicle is the upcoming BMW 1-series. It will have the same engine as the 335i, but is only avaiable as a coupe and is smaller, in overall size and weight, than the 335i. It should be a blast to drive and might be a great Yuppie-mobile for the person who is happy to live with 2 doors and a trunk.
Just some food for thought.
I just finished a track week end at a SVTOA event at Gingerman Raceway in SW Michigan and all I can say is that my Mazdaspeed 3 kept up nicely with the GT and Cobra Mustangs with similarly skilled drivers and was the talk of the track. Several Cobra owners had "trouble" keeping up with me.
N'of said!
Bob
Well, it looks like I'm going backwards here. I currently have a BMW 328i Coupe and I'm looking to purchase a GTI or the MS3. I like the v-dub styling and finish, but the reliability has got me nervous. Has anyone heard of any problems with the '07 GTI's?
I don't care what people say or fabricate about the Mazdaspeed 3, it is an incredible adrenaline rush over anything else in it's class, and this quality bum rushes the "subtle/finer details" adoring VW, A3 and Civic philes are making.
And let the truth be known. The Mazdaspeed is built in Japan. I have put 22k of extremely hard but gratifying miles on this thing, and there are no "rattles" or deminished performance to speak of. Get the truth from people who really own and drive these things.
I test drove both, and since I wanted a car that I didnt have to tear apart to break the 300hp barrier (at the crank, not the wheels), I bought the MS3. A cold air intake, catback exhaust, and testpipe (removing the second cat wont flag a CEL, there's no O2 sensor after it on this car) are all it takes. The only thing that would make both cars better is a higher first gear in a 5 speed transmission, instead of the 6 speed they both use. Both cars have you shifting every few seconds, and in my other turbo cars I've had, that wasnt needed.
Let me start by stating that I have owned a VW jetta glx, Honda civic si,
and I currently own a Mazdaspeed 3 and my wife a 07 BMW 328i.
VW people need to stop with the "classy" and "upscale" thing. It's
driving me crazy! The interiors are clean and understated.
Thats all! My Jetta was peppy and fun to drive back and forth to the dealer for
warranty work for 3 years. When I traded it in the only thing that worked was the motor. Not the AC, windows, audio, moonroof, seats
etc! My Civic si was a great car. Well made, and alot of fun to zip around in. I had it for about 4 years and traded it in for the Jetta, Oops!
Now on to my current cars. First, I like sports cars and driving at speed
but i'm am not in the tuner crowd, and I am not persueded
by marketing and do not care what people might think of me because of what I drive. The Mazda in my opinion is not
overly styled for the sake of it. With the acception of the spoiler,
every other exterior detail is performance related. It is simply
such a blast to drive I kind of feel guilty. My wife would be mad for saying it but her BMW puts me to sleep. For a small sports sedan I think it's overly refined. Yeah it's built quite solid and I'm sure an "M" series could keep me awake but then again so would the payments. For the money, the Speed 3 just fits perfect! I'll shut up now!
I've Test driven a 07 VW GTI (3) times and now OWN a 08 Mazdaspeed3. I don’t regret a thing about it either. I got the Grand touring model which is about 25k and it’s a hell of a lot of car for the money. Performance wise there really isn’t a comparison, the Mazdaspeed3 outperforms the GTI in every way. As far as the interior, yeah the GTI has a nice simple interior but the Mazdaspeed3’s interior is in my opinion just as nice if not better! The power that the Mazdaspeed3 has is incredible, especially in the 3rd and 4th gear which is where most people probably spend the most time anyway.
I just bought an '08 2-dr GTI with DSG and i couldn't be any more happy with it. I'm an enthusiast and true, i may have sacrificed minor power, but the handling and power i have in the GTI are, in my opinion, superb. I heavily considered the MS3, but decided to go with the more cult classic GTI. The interior has a perfect mix of the young vivacious feel and the upscale materials you'll find in many Beemers. The GTI's 0-60 time is a mere half second slower than the MS3 and with paddle shifters in my GTI the urban drag strip will rarely be witness to my slaughter caused by an MS3. I've driven through the winding mountain roads from my valley home to the ocean on the other side taking those turns at 70 and 80mph without any slippage on the gravel stricken country roads. I am absolutely in love with my car and with a 100,000 mile warranty and loaner cars and the slew of people i have known who've driven their VW's for the last ten years, i'm not too concerned about minor warranty issues. Both cars are beautiful and to really know which you'll choose you're gonna have to get behind the wheel of both. My 2-dr weighs in at 3 pounds less than the MS3 and boasts a cabin that turns into an air-filled pillow in the event of a major accident. I have a family and that was a huge plus for me. When i bought it the dealer showed me a newspaper article of a 17 year old girl in my area who went head on at 55mph with a semi truck pulling a trailer doing 45mph in her '07 rabbit and came away with nothing more than a broken femur.
These are my opinions, arguing is useless. If you're deciding between the two get out there and drive them both.
I just purchased the Mazdaspeed3 and couldn't be happier with a car. Practical yet punchy. Exhaust too boomy? I want it more boomy, this is a sports car folks. I'm upgrading to the cold air intake and catback exhaust soon.
I have the need for more speed. I'm not gonna let that WRX STI or Lancer EVO outrun me ;)
Worst Review I have seen in a long time! Thanks for wasting my time!
"exhaust too droning"
Wow, are you 90 years old? I agree with Corey, what a horrible review.
I don't think you new guys picking this up read it all the way through or in context at all. A full review of the mazdaspeed3 is here:
http://www.cars.com/go/crp/research.jsp?section=reviews&makeid=30&modelid=8376&year=2007&revid=50491&revlogtype=18
Verbatim in the blog post above I say this "If only the Mazda didn’t have that droning exhaust it would be perfect. Even with it I don’t think a sporting man can turn it down."
Its droning because I've tested cars like a Corvette Z06 and at constant highway speed even that car's exhaust doesn't intrude in such an annoying way.
I have a 3" Turbo Back Exhaust on my MS3 and I don't consider it to be a droning exhaust at all. Yes it is loud when you get on it but never a drone.
This comparison is not exactly comparable, if you understand what i am saying. People who buy VW's don't buy Mazdas. People who drive VW's love their cars; they drive better, they handle better, and they have much more class. Also, the Mazdaspeed3 has only been out a year, who knows how reliable it is going to be? All the performance upgrades and turbocharging in this car may lead to bad reliability. Plus, all those idiot kids who buy these cars and drive them around like they are at the daytona racetrack are going to kill them. VW has been using turbochargers in their cars for years, let alone the fact that VW's are engineered for very high speeds. Governors on VW GTI's are set at 145mph, and the car is more than capable of doing 160mph plus some. VW's have always recieved praise for their interior quality. I'm sorry, if I am buying a new car, I want it to look like it was put together correctly and high quality materials were used. The Mazdas interior is pathetic. They use the same plastics and rubbers as new ford models like the escape, focus, etc. Those are cheap! I just think that if you like VW's, stick with them, and you will still love it. If you love Mazdas, or japanese cars, stick with that, because they are completely different cars. I would drive a VW with problems over a Mazda anyday.
I've owned my last VW, due to reliability issues. It was a 1999 Passat 1.8T. It had 2 iginition modules and 1 ABS module go bad, along with 3 or 4 upper front control arms (no offroading, just a bad design). Cruise control doesn't work, car will lock itself sometimes.
I just bought a Speed 3 and have thoroughly enjoyed it.....
Tom,
You say VWs have much more class. You're right, they do have a lot of class...all of it 3rd.
I have a VW (TDI Jetta) and a Mazda (Probe GT, same as the MX-6 of yore). I have owned 3 other VWs, two 8V GTIs and a Rabbit. Saying the VW handles and drives better just because it is a VW is way out in left field.
None of my VWs have been anywhere near as reliable as the anvil-like "Mazda" and none of them have delivered as complete a driving experience, from the arroyos and coastal highways of CA to the country straights of the midwest.
I thought I wanted a new GTI as a daily driver but then I drove the Mazdaspeed 3. As someone who likes to DRIVE more than just commute, there is absolutely no comparison. In any subjective or object performance measure, the 3 is far and away the superior platform.
I've been slogging something with crank windows, manual locks, etc because I like the agility, mid-range torque, and reliability. The Mazdaspeed 3 seems to have all of these in spades over the GTI.
We shall see!
Mike Hanley has it exactly right. I just test drove both of these cars within the last hour. Sure the mazda speed has a lot of pickup (bit of torque steer too). And I love the mazda from the outside. But as soon as I got in and started driving it, it wasn't doing it for me. Its missing a lot of the luxury things I want, like a a sunroof for example. And the dash gauges I didn't like.
I went to the VW dealer and test drove a GTI right after. That is the car I want. Its got plenty of pickup, and it feel great as a whole package. Interior/exterior/transmission and all.
My needs might be a bit different, its a daily driver for me. I want creature comforts all around. I don't care if its the fastest thing I could get for the price, you have to give up too much in my opinion. I'll gladly pay $4k more for the GTI (with all options).
I'd totally get the R32 but I must have a manual transmission. Anyway, my 2 cents...
the ms3 was the funnest car ive ever drivin! im getting one
A close friend has the MSP3 and I have an 07 6spd GTI. The mazda puts you in the seat a tiny bit more than the GTI, but the GTI has a better overall feel (speed+handling+comfort). The mazda felt jittery and loose while the GTI felt firm and planted...especially in curves.
Diss the stock GTI tires though...mine came with Conti's that bounce with acceleration and break loose in turns.
I'm also really surprised that Mazda doesn't offer this car with AWD. that would put them in Subaruville, which I think is somewhere near Vermont.
Who needs coffee when i can DRIVE my MazdaSpeed3 to work in the morning. I never really instigate any speeding contests either-it always seems to be uninformed Lexus IS and Infiniti G series drivers who are surprised when they can't cut in front of this lowly Mazda - OR have to floor it to keep up. It's always fun being underestimated in this car.
Although you may see plenty of regular 3's, I also like that the Speed3 itself is pretty rare (esp. since they discontinued my color "cosmic blue micah").
10K miles and 7 months later - the only problem is my wife is getting sick of me always insisting in driving us all around in this all the time.
I think the interior is nice & quality enough(esp. in updated 2008.5 models), also it has airbags everywhere. For those of you who don't think the interior is "refined enough"- LOL@U I guess I'm too busy watching the road and VWs in my rear view- ARE YOU really staring at the dash board THAT MUCH while you're driving?
One thing i forgot to add: although I enjoyed the stock exhaust, my kids hated riding in the MazdaSpeed3 in the beginning and complained that the car was too loud. The first upgrade to the car soon after was Dynamat all around the cabin and hatch area.
Let me say that was one of the best mods done to the car and would recommend it for any car that already doesn't have any factory installed sound management.
It took a day for a local custom shop to do but wasn't immediately noticeable (maybe there is a break-in process where it gets more effective after being newly installed).
Now the exhaust as well as other "outside noise" to the cabin is mitigated to comfortable levels for wife and kids, and I can still roll the windows down when I want to enjoy the exhaust and engine tunes. Other nice side effects are your stereo is instantly improved because it is competing less with car and road noise (it SEEMS louder)- AND all the doors shut with an even more SOLID action (a coworker was impressed that it felt like shutting the door to his Bimmer).
So thats my advice, if you want a little more "refinement", no matter what car you purchase, you yourself or a local custom shop can wrap your cabin in noise insulating material and instantly improve the experience for everyone riding in the car.
I keep hearing about VW's lack of reliability. Does anyone have specific complaints. I've heard this concern with Jettas and Touaregs but I've had a 2009 Rabbit S 5M for 4 months and 15000 miles and have had nothing but fun in it. I'm 58, had my first VDub in Germany in 1967 (it was a split window 1952 model as I recall) and driving this Rabbit is the most fun I've had in ages. Specific comments on Rabbit/GTI problems? Thanks.
Very interesting thread, especially since I've been considering the current GTI and MazdaSpeed3 too.
I must say the Speed just seems mildly unintegrated to me. The VW seems far more refined. I liked both of them for different reasons. I'm probably going to try both of them again, assuming I sell my 1995 Porsche 911 C2.
Given the experts who hang around this site, I would welcome comments on this little dilemma: my 911 has about 108K miles on it. Running very strong with a mildly worn 6-speed manual transmission. Still works fine, and may for awhile if I treat it nicely. Engine runs very strong. The car needs new shocks and struts...I could easily drop 20K on it over the next five years, but the running gear would be virtually new if I did that. new shocks and struts. Rebuilt tranny. Rebuilt Engine. 20K would buy all that for the 911.
The 911 is nowhere near as practical as the Speed or the GTI...but, man, as a driving experience it purely throws every other car I've ever driven right into the shade.
And I *liked* the GTI and the Speed. Like them a lot for their various virtues (although I would NOT like taking a GTI into the shop as often as some reports suggest I would...are the 2007-2009 GTIs more reliable than previously?)..
My problem is I'm having real trouble giving up the 911, even though I should. The thought of slowly upgrading and maintaining it for the next five years is alternately exciting and frightening. 45K is a lot of money to have in a 20-year-old daily driver, which is what my 911 is for me. But...that car is like crack for a crack-addict. It is. Both the GTI and the Speed felt like toys in comparison, and this is not meant with any disrespect to those cars.
If you've never driven the last of the air-cooled 911s, you owe it to yourself. That or a Cayman S.
Everyone here has various informed things to say about the cars under discussion...but do yourself a favor and go drive a 1995-1998 air cooled 911...or any manual Cayman S..then, at least, you'll have a good basis for comparison.
Me? I dunno what I'm gonna do, but I have the feeling maybe the Porsche is going to be around awhile.
Comments? Would you sell the 911 and be happy with a Speed or GTI? Or would you keep the 911 and enjoy it, cost and all?
Both cars make me go...bah.
After 4 consecutive GTI's, the 2 latest were VR-6's, I just moved on to a Mazdaspeed 3. I loved the GTI's, but they don't offer a six anymore, and if I am going to get a turbo I want the Mazda's 264hp. Sure you can chip the VW to 260 hp, but I want a stock car that will do my daily commute with no warrantee problems. Besides, you will still loose against 300 hp chipped Mazdaspeeds. No serious problems with the VW's, but lots of niggling little ones: oil leaks, coolant leaks, side trim coming loose, etc. And the infamous P2181 cooling system code; VW doesn't consider it a problem and won't fix it on warrantee, but you can't get your car emission checked with it showing. Solution: replace the thermal sensor and thermostat multiple times and pray. The latest GTI’s handled well, but the earlier models were way too soft for a performance hatchback. I like the Mazdaspeed 3 well so far. Very complete with the Gran Turing package, an I didn’t have to pay $$$ for a stupid sun roof that adds pounds up high to reduce the handling and is useless on my Seattle freeway commute.
The 2 door VW looks amazing i am going to buy a 6 speed man simply because i don't see the DSG lasting. I studied the heck out of the VW and i don't think i will be disappointed. As for the people who make assumptions that certain Makes are crap, i don't know how to help you. Ford has good models and bad just like any other Make. 7.3 powerstroke= 947,000+ miles. Festiva=220,000+ miles.
I agree, this is a great review. I think the Mazda has proved itself time and time again to be a great machine, and very attractive as well.